« BackWolfSSL sucks too, so now what?blog.feld.meSubmitted by thomasjb 16 hours ago
  • meinersbur 15 hours ago

    This is the WolfSSL maintainer's response[1]

    > This ticket is rather long and has a lot of irrelevant content regarding this new topic. If I need to bring in a colleague I do not want them to have to wade through all the irrelevant context. If you would like, please open a new issue with regards to how we support middlebox compatibility.

    The author turns this into:

    > The GitHub issue comment left at the end leads me to believe that they aren't really interested in RFC compliance. There isn't a middleground here or a "different way" of implementing middlebox compatibility. It's either RFC compliant or not. And they're not.

    This is a bad-faith interpretation of the maintainer's response. They only asked to open a new, more specific issue report. The maintainer always answered within minutes, which I find quite impressive (even after the author ghosted for months). The author consumed the maintainer's time and shouldn't get the blame for the author's problems.

    [1]: https://github.com/wolfSSL/wolfssl/issues/9156

    • reanimus 15 hours ago

      I don't know, I don't think it's really a huge waste of time considering I just read the entire comment thread in a handful of minutes. And beyond that, failing to comply with RFC requirements is the bug here -- a workaround existing for a specific language isn't a fix.

      • Alupis 36 minutes ago

        It's pretty standard to open a new issue and reference the previous issue for context, while keeping the new issue specific about what needs to be addressed - ie. RFC compliance.

        I don't see the problem here at all - it was a reasonable request and it would have taken `feld` all of 2 minutes to do. Certainly less time than writing that blog post.

        • deng 15 hours ago

          Again: the maintainer does not say there is no bug. He says: please open a new issue, with a proper title and description for the actual underlying problem. Is that seriously too much to ask? Instead, the guy writes a whole blog post shitting on the project. Does anyone still wonder why people burn out on maintaining FOSS projects?

          • halapro 14 hours ago

            Not great behavior I agree, but what else is there to say other than "it does not match the spec at point 1.2.3"?

            • Semaphor 14 hours ago

              Then opening the ticket should be easy enough?

              I certainly understand the maintainer here, because that’s what I keep telling colleagues at work.

              Tickets get really cumbersome if they are not clear and actionable.

              • PunchyHamster 3 hours ago

                ...that's what they are asking, yes.

          • teekert 14 hours ago

            A reasonable reply indeed from the maintainer, this happens a lot where you think together in an issue and identify whats really wrong near the end. Only then is one able to articulate an issue in a helpful, concise way. Perhaps GH could add a feature to facilitate this pattern.

            • hypeatei 14 hours ago

              The maintainer should just open a new issue for RFC compliance himself since that's a pretty big issue and he obviously thinks OP spams too much.

              This game of stalling / obfuscating via the issue tracker gets very old.

              • toast0 2 hours ago

                I can see both ways here.

                If the maintainer just opens the concise bug report they want (RFC .... Section ... If TLS1.3 is negotiated and client sends session id, server must send cipherchangespec), they have what they want and can move on with their life.

                However, if the maintainer can get the reporter to do it, the reporter has become a better reporter and the world has become a better place.

                IMHO, the original bug report was pretty out there. Asking a library developer to debug a client they don't use with a sever they didn't write either is pretty demanding. I know openssl has a minimal server, I expect woflssl does too? that would be easier to debug.

                Actually, on re-reading the original report, the reporter links to a discussion where they have all the RFC references. Had the reporter summarized that to begin with, rather than suggesting a whole lot of other stuff (like a different wolfssl issue that has to be completely unrelated), I think the issue would have gone better.

                I will further add that putting a MUST in an appendix seems kind of poor editing. It should have been noted in section 4.1.2 and/or 4.1.3 that a non-empty legacy_session_id indicates that the server MUST send a cipher change spec. It's not totally obvious, but if the client requests middlebox compatability, the RFC says the server MUST do it. If the client doesn't request it by sending a legacy session id, the server can still send a superfluous change cipher spec message if it wants, although I don't know if it will help without the session id.

                • deng 14 hours ago

                  > The maintainer should just

                  Out of interest: which FOSS projects are you maintaining, and how many users do these have, approximately?

                  • hypeatei 14 hours ago

                    Out of interest, how is that relevant? Are we not able to criticize a FOSS maintainers response unless we run a project of scale ourselves? The maintainer is clearly engaging and knows what the problem is but stalls on the "last mile" which is issue creation. Do you agree?

                    wolfSSL also sells commercial licenses so it's not like they're going uncompensated for their work. Regardless, we shouldn't put people on pedestals because their title is "FOSS maintainer"

                    • phoronixrly 30 minutes ago

                      Unless you're paying you are not entitled to anything apart from forking and fixing it yourself.

                      You are especially not entitled to bullying maintainers as has been unfortunately the standard in infosec.

                      Open source is not about you.

                      https://gist.github.com/g1eny0ung/9e7d4d0f72547a8d156452e76f...

                      IMO more projects have to explicitly state this for example in a terms document, like this: https://github.com/mhoye/maintenance-terms/blob/main/MAINTEN...

                      • deng 13 hours ago

                        > Out of interest, how is that relevant?

                        OK, so: zero. It is relevant because if you did, you probably wouldn't feel so entitled.

                        > The maintainer is clearly engaging and knows what the problem is but stalls on the "last mile" which is issue creation. Do you agree?

                        No, I don't agree. This is just your interpretation, done in bad faith.

                        > wolfSSL also sells commercial licenses so it's not like they're going uncompensated for their work.

                        The user in question does not have a commercial license, so in this case, the maintainer was not compensated for assisting that user.

                        > Regardless, we shouldn't put people on pedestals because their title is "FOSS maintainer"

                        We shouldn't shit on other people's work we got for free just because they asked for a tiny little thing we might do to help them. It's you who needs to get down from that pedestal.

                        • hypeatei 13 hours ago

                          > you probably wouldn't feel so entitled.

                          ...what? Are we living in the same universe? What exactly did I say that makes me entitled?

                          > The user in question does not have a commercial license

                          Do you know that for sure or are you speculating?

                          > We shouldn't shit on other people's work we got for free

                          When did I shit on the work of wolfSSL? I'm saying that it appears they were engaging but got hung up on a small issue.

                          > It's you who needs to get down from that pedestal.

                          Respectfully, you need to get a grip.

                    • otterley 2 hours ago

                      Why should that be the maintainer's burden?

                    • Phemist 14 hours ago

                      This issue has a similar conversational rhythm that led to the AI agent hit piece that was trending yesterday:

                      https://theshamblog.com/an-ai-agent-published-a-hit-piece-on...

                      The OPs blog post also reeks of a similar style to the hit piece.

                      Given the large delay between the initial report and further responses by the user `feld`, I wonder if an OpenClaw agent was given free reign to try to clear up outstanding issues in some project, including handling the communication with the project maintainers?

                      Maybe I am getting too paranoid..

                      • SubjectToChange 10 hours ago

                        Worse yet, despite publishing seventeen blog posts between filing the issue and finally responding to it, he has the gall to open with "Sorry I missed your replies (life gets busy)".

                      • SubjectToChange 10 hours ago

                        The blog author seems like a real piece of work. He ghosts the WolfSSL maintainer for over 160 days and when asked to open a new, more specific issue, he instead chooses to write a blog post denigrating the project. The WolfSSL maintainer was nothing but courteous and helpful throughout the entire exchange.

                        >...they aren't really interested in RFC compliance.

                        Yeah, well "feld" can't claim to be "interested in RFC compliance" either when he ghosts the issue for months and chooses to write blog posts instead of opening a new issue. Good grief.

                        If this is what the FreeBSD community is like, I want nothing to do with them.

                        • yjftsjthsd-h 9 hours ago

                          I don't think it's fair to judge the whole FreeBSD community by one person.

                          • andrewflnr 2 hours ago

                            Seriously, where the hell did that come from?

                        • phendrenad2 a few seconds ago

                          [delayed]

                          • dieulot 15 hours ago

                            Regarding HAProxy, they ended up using AWS-LC in their new Debian/Ubuntu “performance” packages: https://www.haproxy.com/blog/fresh-from-aws-reinvent-superch...

                            • mythz 15 hours ago

                              BearSSL by Thomas Pornin is always worth checking in on, not sure what the current status is but looks like it received a commit last year.

                              [1] https://bearssl.org

                              • jorams 15 hours ago

                                BearSSL is really cool, but it claims beta quality with the latest release in 2018, doesn't support TLS 1.3, and hasn't seen meaningful development in years. It's averaging about 1 commit per year recently, and they're not big ones.

                                • embedding-shape an hour ago

                                  Where is Bellard when we need him?

                            • ospray 15 hours ago

                              We need something with TLS in the name for the next one so people stop getting confused.

                              • magicalhippo 15 hours ago
                                • weinzierl 15 hours ago

                                  rustls is there. It has TLS in the name, it is good and there is a C FFI wrapper.

                                  • dwedge 14 hours ago

                                    A c wrapper to rust feels like we've gone full circle

                                    • pocksuppet 11 hours ago

                                      That would be amazing and really cement the proven value of Rust.

                                    • gspr 14 hours ago

                                      Rustls still outsources cryptographic primitives. I believe the currently supported providers of those are… drumroll… AWS-LC and Ring. The latter is a fork of BoringSSL. The article describes AWS-LC and BoringSSL as "Googled and Amazoned to death; they don't care about anyone but their own use cases".

                                      The state of things sucks :-(

                                      • tialaramex 21 minutes ago

                                        The primitives aren't a problem. You can't write them in any vaguely modern high level language. And when I say "High level" I mean that the way K&R does when they describe their new C programming language as high level. The reason you can't write cryptographic primitives in a high level language is that optimising compilers love clever tricks which offer data dependent performance, across every layer of their design - but in cryptography we want constant execution time regardless of either the plaintext or keys used.

                                        The problem with OpenSSL isn't these cryptographic primitives, that's why you will see basically the same primitives re-used in lots of different places. It's like finding out that the guy who was just arrested for murder also eats pizza. Yeah, people do that. The problem wasn't the pizza, it was the murder. OpenSSL's implementation of the AES cipher isn't broken, the problem is elsewhere.

                                        • PunchyHamster 3 hours ago

                                          The author also doesn't specify what that even means and what problems it causes

                                          • koakuma-chan 14 hours ago
                                            • gspr 7 hours ago

                                              It's a great effort, but it's far from usable:

                                              > USE THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK! DO NOT USE THIS IN PRODUCTION

                                          • koakuma-chan 14 hours ago

                                            rustls doesn't have its own implementation of cryptography, you have to choose a provider like openssl or aws lc

                                            • SAI_Peregrinus 10 hours ago

                                              Or rustcrypto. Rustls is a TLS layer that can wrap any cryptography layer providing the necessary primitives.

                                          • account42 11 hours ago

                                            But then how will we spot the pedants.

                                            • zephen 14 hours ago

                                              You're obviously looking for lastLs.

                                            • germandiago 14 hours ago

                                              Usability-wise (I do not need many features or compliance for FIPS) I have been happy with Botan: https://botan.randombit.net/

                                              • wink 13 hours ago

                                                Can confirm, used Botan in the past and I didn't curse at it a lot. Certainly less than OpenSSL.

                                              • mappu 2 hours ago

                                                Go can create C ABI shared libraries, I think OpenSSL-compatible C bindings to Go's crypto/tls would be a really interesting option.

                                                • AtlasBarfed 27 minutes ago

                                                  Do you want garbage collection in your SSL?

                                                • stabbles 14 hours ago

                                                  Many people and projects have tried to ditch OpenSSL in favor of LibreSSL, WolfSSL, MbedTLS, etc, but by now many have returned to OpenSSL. The IQ curve meme with "just use OpenSSL" applies.

                                                  • SubjectToChange 10 hours ago

                                                    I don't see how OpenSSL can recover from it's 3.0 disaster. They would basically have to write off the past few years of development work and start over from version 1.1.1

                                                  • tialaramex 39 minutes ago

                                                    > Last updated on 2026-12-13

                                                    Yeah, no, I can't find a way to read this in which it's not in the future.

                                                    • eptcyka 15 hours ago

                                                      There’s always rustls.

                                                      • gspr 14 hours ago

                                                        Rustls still outsources cryptographic primitives. I believe the currently supported providers of those are… drumroll… AWS-LC and Ring. The latter is a fork of BoringSSL. The article describes AWS-LC and BoringSSL as "Googled and Amazoned to death; they don't care about anyone but their own use cases".

                                                        The state of things sucks :-(

                                                        • LtWorf 15 hours ago

                                                          FIPS compliant?

                                                          • eptcyka 14 hours ago

                                                            It is if you use the FIPS compliance feature - then you also depend on aws-lc, but only for the crypto primitives.

                                                        • MrBuddyCasino 15 hours ago

                                                          Now what? BearSSL.

                                                          • saqrais 15 hours ago
                                                            • lmz 3 hours ago

                                                              AGPLv3 so not exactly a drop in replacement, license-wise.