Quite clearly the EU DMA.
As part of the Digital Markets Act (DMA) evaluation [0], Apple was found to operate a market for headphones connected to its devices, while competing in the same market with own products and giving itself a competitive advantage by creating OS-features exclusive to them.
The EU found this is not a level playing field for competition and ordered that they have to make such OS features available for other accessory manufacturers as well.
I guess they are currently either trying to make a case for the EU on how it is technically impossible to provide the feature to others, prove that this is somehow not an OS-feature (and should be excluded) or delay any action to maximize the benefit of this competitive advantage in other markets.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are also beats headphones in the pipeline for which they want to use this feature as competitive USP...
[0] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...
Also, Apple cannot name this as reason explicitly, because users may look up the details of that ruling and may find themselves agreeing with the sentiment...
"[..] The measures will grant device manufacturers and app developers improved access to iPhone features that interact with such devices (e.g. displaying notifications on smartwatches), faster data transfers (e.g. peer-to-peer Wi-Fi connections, and near-field communication) and easier device set-up (e.g. pairing).
As a result, connected devices of all brands will work better on iPhones. Device manufacturers will have new opportunities to bring innovative products to the market, improving the user experience for consumers based in Europe. The measures ensure that this innovation takes place in full respect of users' privacy and security as well as the integrity of Apple's operating systems."No consideration for trade-offs involved here, it’s naive at best
It’s enormously difficult to ship any interesting feature that integrates hardware and software. The EU wants Apple to happily accept a burden that makes it harder to produce the products that made it popular in the first place.
I’m disappointed the EU won’t be getting these features (at least not quickly) but I’m hoping the citizenry realizes who’s to blame here
> No consideration for trade-offs involved here, it’s naive at best
I recommend you to read the ruling [0] and form your own opinion.
> The EU wants Apple to happily accept a burden that makes it harder to produce the products that made it popular in the first place.
No, the EU mandates that Apple cannot implement OS features for the sole benefit of its own hardware-offering in a different market, because this is not fair competition. They are not required to foster new HW ecosystems for each feature, they just have to provide access to such OS features under equal conditions:
"By mandating an equally effective interoperability solution, the legislator acknowledged that the implementation of interoperability does not always need to (and potentially cannot always) be the same for the gatekeeper and third parties, but interoperability must be granted to the same feature under equal conditions."
There is a world of difference between shipping a feature, and shipping an api that anyone can use to ship a feature. It is such a normal progression to make an api and dogfood it internally, iterate until you have something you feel comfortable supporting indefinitely, and then expose that api publicly. It is not reasonable, IMO, to require that every feature you ship has an API that is ready for public consumption.
Granted, Apple generally doesn't do that last part unless forced. I think some kind of timeline on the DMA requirements would be more reasonable. e.g. you have two years to make a feature publicly accessible before fines start accruing.
> It is such a normal progression to make an api and dogfood it internally, iterate until you have something you feel comfortable supporting indefinitely, and then expose that api publicly
For a hobbyist? Sure! For a company with half the smartphone market and a trillion dollar market cap? EU doesn't mandate that they define a new standard and support it indefinitely.
You can see the headlines though “Apple skirts interoperability law by deprecating API after only one year”. Maintaining a public API is a cost usually only taken in because it has a benefit to the company.
They are free to do that but they need to deprecate the feature for their own devices as well.
Apple is not required to develop or maintain any feature against their will. The DMA is not written like that, it is much more objective and industry-agnostic.
The EU demands that features implemented in the OS to be used by Apple accessories must be made equally available to competing accessory vendors.
Then why not deprecate the API every month? Also do a firmware update every month across their ecosystem.
Why? Because Apple is in the money making business and no one will buy a device where their (expensive) accessories cease working randomly.
Especially when the user finds out the reason.
Or, just not block access.
Does DMA allows Apple to do certification? Like Certifies devices for Apple Translation compatible ? Or is that straightly forbidden?
I think it will depend on if it seems like it's anti-competitive gatekeeping or has a legitimate use. The DMA specifically prohibits measure that are meant to gatekeep, but iirc it has allowances for things that have real technical justification.
Certifying devices to make sure they're safe for users, like "this cable is certified as compatible, it won't set your iphone on fire", seems fine.
Requiring your app to be "certified by apple to sell ebooks", and then only granting that certificate to Apple Books, not the Kindle app, that seems anti-competitive.
A public proprietary API.
If the industry wants better open standards, they the participants should develop those standards and build devices that implement those standards.
What Apple does outside of such standards is nobody else's business - as long as they correctly implement and support the industry standards.
> It is not reasonable, IMO, to require that every feature you ship has an API that is ready for public consumption.
It is, if we're talking about features designed to boost sales of your other products while preventing competitors from offering those features.
Look, even if they're able to compete fairly, those competitors might remain inferior options for other reasons. But Apple having to compete will make their products better. All of their best achievements came from fierce competition as the underdog. Apple's current situation is not good for it.
What if it relies on non-standard changes to Bluetooth and WiFi?
Must they get these passed in the standards committees first?
With Bluetooth they do ruse non standard changes, heavily influenced the development of LE Audio and there is no statement about when if ever they will support LE Audio, possibly never. Apple simply doesn't care
The best part is: the EU demands Apple do all the necessary R&D, including an indefinite liability of API maintenance, at no cost to developers.
Garmin pays apple already for a developer license to have an app to pair garmin watches.... and yet 90% of the features of the apple watch simply cannot be implemented for a garmin watch, no matter how much they pay, because those APIs are private to apple watch.
Yes, apple did the R&D to figure out how to let their watch filter notifications by app, and it must have cost them so much to be able to filter notifications that it has to be locked into their watch. That's not them being intentionally anti-competitive, it's just R&D costs, sure, I'm sure it cost a ton to make that private API.
Yes, the $99/yr Garmin pays covers the 40 minutes of labor it would take annually for an Apple engineer to support this I'm sure.
You said "no cost to developers", that part's not true. you're of course right that it's not really enough money to be relevant though.
The more cogent argument is that if apple doesn't want to spend money making their phone work with smartwatches, they do not have to make it work with smartwatches.
They want it to work with watches so users buy the phone.
If they want it to work with _only_ their watch, then sure, they make more money, but they also harm the user and market in the long-term by making it so competitors aren't on an even playing field.
Do you just kinda believe anti-competitiveness doesn't exist?
Should apple be allowed to make it so you can't communicate with android users at all to increase sales (which they already more-or-less did)? Should they intentionally make it so you can't play the music you purchased on non-apple devices by breaking "iTunes for windows"?
The API already exists, they just don't let other people use it because they're greedy. There's no additional maintenance burden.
I mean, even if you assumed that it would actually take 40 minutes (it likely doesn’t), I suspect Apple engineers working on this cost the company more than $249k a year
Wow sounds like the $99/yr the commenter was saying developers "pay" Apple is a trivial amount and cannot be used to justify the development of an entire SDK that maybe a dozen companies will use.
But Apple already justified building a secure, private, on-device SDK that exactly one (1) company will be guaranteed to use.
I see no reason it cannot be a private entitlement similar to the other sensitive entitlements on iOS.
Internal API is not an SDK. It regularly astounds me how many commenters on a so-called hacker forum seem to think it is. Is everyone else publishing their tightly coupled business logic code as API these days? Is that what GraphQL is?
Apple can revoke the entitlement if it's abused, as they've done many times in the past with signed apps. Nobody (including the EU) is demanding that it be an zero-auth free-for-all API, only that competitors can use it. It's not an absurd demand and there is absolutely precedent for Apple individually trusting competitors in this regard.
If you're astounded by hackers asking practical questions, maybe you should stop carrying water for corps and see how your back feels. Let's talk shop, what are the roadblocks Apple faces here?
No, the EU demands that features implemented in the OS to be used by Apple accessories must be made equally available to competing accessory vendors.
This prevents Apple the platform provider and gatekeeper from giving preferential treatment to Apple the Smartwatch/Headphones/Payment/Entertainment provider
Given that Apple already maintains a comprehensive entitlement system[0] they charge EU developers[1] to use, I don't see how that's an issue. Apple's work amounts to swapping out a .plist file, they could be compliant in 10 minutes with an OTA update. If they wanted.
[0] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/en...
[1] https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/
Ah, so Apple is not selling iPhones but it just gives them out for free?
This is such a stupid question you must either be dense or purposely missing the point.
Look in the mirror.
Apple makes money by selling devices. With giant profit margins, at that.
So why should they be able to charge developers in addition to consumers?
Other device manufacturers ship hardware built on pre-existing software with some customizations, often using off-the-shelf drivers and software components. Apple is not only selling you a device, they’re selling you an OS and a quite decent software package including options that compete with other paid software offerings.
And?
Apple also benefitted from third-party developers writing software for its platform. Remember the "there's an app for that" ads?
I think developers deserve to be treated fairly by Apple, not exploited four different ways. Because to develop for Apple you need:
1. Buy Apple hardware, because Apple doesn't provide cross-platform development tools (unlike Android or even Microsoft).
2. Pay $100 a year just to be able to publish the software.
3. Pay 30% of the app income to Apple (this changed only recently).
4. Have to endure odious restrictions imposed only because Apple wants to keep control of its platform.
> Pay 30% of the app income to Apple (this changed only recently).
This is among the biggest fictions of this crazed argument. Spotify, the company that whines about Apple the most, pays Apple $0 (sorry, $99) for building the entire market for consumer mobile internet upon which their business depends.
How much does Apple pay every networking equipment manufacturer, ISP or carrier upon which its market depends on? Last time I checked Apple devices don't operate on an Apple-exclusive worldwide mobile internet network.
> Spotify, the company that whines about Apple the most, pays Apple $0 (sorry, $99) for building the entire market for consumer mobile internet upon which their business depends.
You mean, Apple leeches that glomped onto Spotify success to prop up the iOS market share? When not having Spotify meant that people might end up moving to Android? And yet they still required Spotify to pay 30% up until 2022, when the "reader app" exemption was made?
Remember when Apple offered Spotify private APIs for subscription control to work around the iOS App Store piss-poor subscription management?
That Spotify?
The iPhone Pro Max retails for as much as the Samsung Galaxy Ultra, and only one of the two OEMs builds the application platform used by all its developers. What are these "giant profit margins" you're referring to?
Apple SEC report 2023, Q3: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/0000320193240...
Net sales: $119575 billion, net income $33916. Margin: 28%
Sounds like they have pretty bad margins!
Because selling devices is orthogonal to maintaining a marketplace and dozens of APIs for third parties to use, and the latter can be charged for as well.
If EU doesn't demand for those API to be free, may be Apple could just have terms and cost for those API to be charged? Basically like Lightning adoptor where Apple collects dollars on accessories sold.
I agree on both side some money needs to be exchanged in terms of features and Apple cant have it all to themselves. But currently it doesn't seems both side is listening and no middle ground. One side wants it all for free, the other side dont want their money and wants to keep everything themselves.
Apple proposed something like this with their "Core Technology Fee" which the EU commissioners were upset about. They literally do not want to let Apple directly monetize the R&D it takes to produce an application platform.
I think there is a different in Core Technology Fee and let say Apple Translation Software Fees. One is too broad while another one is specific. Apple could theoretically give away that translation software as bundle of AirPod. And see that software for a cost to other user or third party.
Yeah, because this fee was crazy unreasonable (50 cents per app download).
Who are you to say what a reasonable price is for Apple’s intellectual property?
The EU, that's who. The law exists because these policies stifle competition and prevent the proper functioning of the free market and the DMA is a small step to restore the competitive balance.
Are you under the impression that corporations like Apple should wield more power than world governments?
For developers? $0.0 for app publishing. Bandwidth cost for download. We can use AWS egress fees as guidance.
Let's see... How much should Apple pay to the European Union to be allowed to sell devices there? I say 50% of gross income?
And Apple is now saying "That's fine, we'll instead adhere to the law by having our product do less. Don't buy it if you don't like the reduced featureset."
Someone at Apple did math on this and it's not worth their time to make this feature interoperable just for the EU market. That's because of this law. They wouldn't have even considered it without the law.
We are anyway an Android market, so they only get to loose by behaving like a child.
Which is fine as well if that's really the case (which I don't think it is, Europe apparently makes up ~1/3 of Apple's total Airpods revenue).
If they refrain from distorting the market in their favor (and instead "retreat and rally up the userbase") the DMA seems to work surprisingly well so far...
The procedures with the EU are quite interesting here, Apple was exchanging extensively for more than a year on how to reach compliance, then the decision [0] was made.
There are also separate procedures for the specification of compliance and investigating (non)compliance.
This gives Apple little room to argue on violation of the DMA later-on, because they were actively involved in defining the criteria beforehand.
So it's possible that they currently just need to find a mode to achieve launch-parity for EU on such features, and they're not there yet.
[0] https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/2...
Saying that the DMA is working well by reducing the features available to users with no apparent upside is a tough sell.
Quite a few upsides.
There are a few clear precedents where Apple held a feature back in the EU, then shipped later and/or exposed a path others could plug into:
Apple Intelligence: Announced as “not at launch” in the EU in 2024, then rolled out to EU users with iOS 18.4 in spring 2025 (most features). One carve-out remains: Live Translation with AirPods
NFC access for third-party wallets (HCE): After an EU antitrust case, Apple committed to open iPhone NFC (“tap-to-pay”) via Host Card Emulation, let users set a default non-Apple wallet, support Field Detect/Double-click flows, etc., so a genuine “build a platform others can plug into.” The Commission made these commitments legally binding for 10 years.
With iOS 17.4 Apple created EU-only entitlements for non-WebKit engines (e.g., full Chromium/Gecko), so browser makers can ship their own engines on iPhone/iPad in the EU.
Home-screen web apps (PWAs) reversal: Apple initially said PWAs would go away in the EU for 17.4, then reversed and kept them—implemented on WebKit with the usual security model.
Alternative app distribution (marketplaces + web distribution): In response to the DMA, Apple shipped EU-only APIs/entitlements for third-party app marketplaces and later web distribution (direct from developer sites) with notarization, installation, backup/restore hooks, etc.
Tap to Pay on iPhone (SoftPOS): Apple’s merchant “no extra hardware” payments feature expanded across EU countries and is designed for platforms like Adyen/Stripe/Mollie to integrate via SDKs
None of those are new features out since the DMA.
The only one clearly DMA related with EU specific unlocks are:
* app store
* browser engines
The DMA could have been just an app store regulation. It seems to have had its intended effect there. Very very unproven outside of it. At best you've shown no harm other than delay in some areas.
I'm assuming NFC lawsuits are separate from the DMA but could be mistaken. But in any event NFC payments already existed and aren't a new feature apple decided to release under the DMA.
The fact is adapting a service to provide and support a generic API for the long term that others can hook into is extra work, compared to a private API tailored to their own hardware and that they can change whenever they like. It may be they could provide this as an open service in future.
On the other hand, what is to prevent another ear bud manufacturer writing an iPhone app their ear buds connects to that provides translation? Is this really a hardware feature in the phone? If it’s just software at the phone end, as long as other manufacturers have the feature access to implement this themselves, surely that’s their problem? Why should apple offer translation software as a service to other companies for free? I can see the argument for hardware but not software that others could implement themselves on iPhones.
This is a play of Apple here, trying to spin the narrative in its favor.
The upside for the user is to have a larger variety of devices to choose from, each with similar interoperability with his Apple device.
The upside for the market is that all vendors are technically able to compete on the same terms. Apple is not allowed to operate a market, invite others to compete but also participate as a player with preferential treatment.
This is already decided for the existing features of Airpods, Apple Watch, etc. Apple is trying to rally its userbase against the EU by withholding new features now, in hopes that they can secure their skewed playing-field
> The upside for the user is to have a larger variety of devices to choose from, each with similar interoperability with his Apple device.
That is the dream of the dma. It has not been proven to be the reality.
The reality could very well be that EU users just don’t get features. Apple doesn’t have to play ball.
And that’s fine. If they don’t want to follow the rules they can’t release the thingy.
The upside is that the market for headphones is more competitive because apple cannot use its control over the iphone to muscle competitors in the headphone market.
The goal is to make consumers better off, not just to have a competitive market. There's a lot of ways to make markets more competitive that don't result in better value for consumers, and I'd argue that this is one of them.
In the short term, specifically because of Apple's malicious compliance. In the long term, a more competitive market results in better off consumers.
But no, the goal is not to make consumers better off, but citizens and nations better off. And their interests do not stop at $PRODUCT. Namely, they probably don't want a slow slide into serfdom to foreign corporations that abused their market power.
> Which is fine as well if that's really the case (which I don't think it is, Europe apparently makes up ~1/3 of Apple's total Airpods revenue).
So your belief is that, if DMA didn't exist, Apple still would not ship this feature in the EU?
I don't know how you reached that conclusion, sorry.
It's fine if Apple decided to refrain from its anti-competitive behavior in the headphone market because it's not economically viable to have this feature as a generic OS feature.
They know best and are free to do that.
I find your views alien and strange (and vaguely upsetting, because they negatively impact the entire world)
There are huge hosts of software and hardware that work better because of an ecosystem of interoperable components. That’s not anticompetitive, it’s the benefit of good design with compounding returns.
As the manufacturing process and software becomes less complicated, there is a natural trend towards budget competitors (see: SaaS in 2025) that can replicate functionality they know has a market.
The idea that making it unappealing to make an integrated product is good for consumers — or anticompetitive — seems so wrong that it’s farcical. There are definitely cases where verticalization can harm consumers, but this opens the space for good competition. Perplexity wouldn’t exist if Google actually cared about search customers. Internet Explorer didn’t have to be regulated out of existence — by virtue of sucking, there is opportunity.
> Someone at Apple did math on this and it's not worth their time to make this feature interoperable just for the EU market. That's because of this law
Let's not pretend like Apple isn't doing everything it can to turn its EU users against their government by complying with the DMA in the most obtuse, disruptive, and useless ways possible. They're risking fines and further punishments betting that they can ultimately subvert the democratic process that put in place laws that would require more developer and user freedom. To Apple, the threat of users owning their computers is an existential one.
If the consumers in EU don’t like the legal and predictable effects of the DMA in this case, how is Apple subverting the democratic process? If the act isn’t having the intended effect, then either voters will change their minds or it will need to be reformed. But this sounds like a successful outcome of the law insofar as preventing anticompetitive behavior.
Subverting democracy, to me, would involve things like dark money campaigns and lobbying.
> If the consumers in EU don’t like the legal and predictable effects of the DMA in this case, how is Apple subverting the democratic process
The issue is that Apple isn't following the law. It's breaking it and then miming to its customers that its actions are on account of the law. That misrepresentation is meant to convince citizens of the EU that DMA is a bad law with consequences they don't support so that they pressure their representatives to get it removed.
It's Apple making a big show of directly harming consumers as part of a misinformation campaign to get policy that limits their power repealed. To me that reaches the bar for subverting democracy.
It’s not breaking the law in this case as far as I know.
The law requires Apple to provide equal access to the iPhone hardware and software in marketplaces that it competes in.
That can be done in a manner that is either additive, by providing access to third parties (which is potentially a significant expense and liability) or subtractive, by choosing not to engage in the regulated activities at all, in that jurisdiction.
Proponents of EU competition law seem to be the most egregious version of “America isn’t the center of the world.” Why should international companies build products to align with regulation that has put the nail in the coffin of European innovation?
The DMA is barely past the toddler stage. I think it’s a bit premature to claim lids on coffins here.
It’s not just the DMA. The EU has been regulating innovation to death for decades.
They don't have to, Apple is free to leave the market if they really don't think it's worth it.
That reminds me of Zukerberg's bluff saying he's going to leave the EU which lasted exactly one day.
How is it breaking the law?
They risk getting fines for not releasing a feature? The EU is insane
It's more complicated then this. Apple is a big company with a lot of money - they're absolutely willing to burn millions in the pursuit of principle.
The reality is that, if Apple conforms non-maliciously, they're proving that the law is reasonable and they can do it while remaining profit. Um, that's a huge problem.
They require the plausible deniability of "oh we can't do this, it's too expensive!" Otherwise, other governments (US) might look to implementing similar laws. So, it's a long con. They're burning lots of money, now, with the hope it allows them to continue their anti-competitive behavior for longer. If they're REALLY lucky, they might even stall out the EU and get the EU to backtrack on their laws. That's the golden scenario.
> No, the EU mandates that Apple cannot implement OS features for the sole benefit of its own hardware-offering in a different market, because this is not fair competition.
Thats would involve exposing public api ie “a burden”
>No, the EU mandates that Apple cannot implement OS features for the sole benefit of its own hardware-offering in a different market, because this is not fair competition.
Why don't the other players make their own smartphones and smartphone OS and then "implement OS features for the sole benefit of its own hardware-offering"?
Is it fair to force another player to let you hijack their ecosystem?
The answer is right in the text you quoted. Because it's a different market than the smartphone itself and *unfair competition. It's Apple using its dominant position in the smartphone market to prevent others from competing on equal grounds in a different market.
With iOS Apple owns the playing field where all accessory vendors compete, and Apple competes on the same field. There is no healthy competition possible if Apple puts the finger on the scale to ensure it always wins.
>The answer is right in the text you quoted. Because it's a different market than the smartphone itself and unfair competition.*
That's not an answer, it's a decree.
Others can make their own phones and headphones just for their own devices, did Apple stop them?
It's not a monopoly because if this other theoretical company which does not exist existed then there would be more than one option and it wouldn't be a monopoly.
Not very convincing.
> It’s enormously difficult to ship any interesting feature that integrates hardware and software.
Don't see how it relates to competition but it doesn't matter: Apple competitors should have the same access to the system as Apple does.
Also, don't be naive: this is about money and being able to sell airpods at insane margins by giving them unfair advantages that aren't given to com[etitors.
> I’m hoping the citizenry realizes who’s to blame here
So... Apple?
My headphones certainly don't have trouble connecting to a device of any manufacturer without loss of functionality, but some of the "citizenry" seems to fall for marketing materials saying only apple can do things securely and in an integrated manner
You can connect airpods to a non-apple device and use them for audio.
This is more of an iPhone / iOS feature which uses the airpods as the microphone and audio output.
Um, yes I can do that with headphones and earphones too on non-iPhone/iOS. Not understanding the thing that is a special iPhone feature that no other vendor should be allowed to interoperate with
>Not understanding the thing that is a special iPhone feature that no other vendor should be allowed to interoperate with
Exactly. And Apple intends to keep it that way ;)
It's a purely software limitation. That is, it's a purely arbitrary limitation.
Is it? Apple does weird Bluetooth and WiFi stuff in the H2 chip.
They should stop doing that then and use standards like everyone else. If their protocol is really the bees knees, then just open it.
But, they won't, because they rely on that moat to keep competitors out. It's exactly the same at the lightning cable.
> They should stop doing that then and use standards like everyone else.
Many of those standards are objectively poor. I don’t want to live in the world where what we are allowed to use is defined by the lowest common denominator of mediocre engineers.
Mediocrity über alles is what you are tacitly advocating for. I’ve been part of many standards processes where the majority democratic outcome was low-quality low-effort standards that were extraordinarily wasteful and inefficient because the people making the standards didn’t care, it was all about what was expedient for them. This is the default state of humanity. No one should be forced to comply with that garbage by regulatory fiat if they don’t want to.
The standards are really bad and it’s not just about protocols but hardware. Should they give away every hardware design needed too?
Lighting was an incredible boon in an era of micro usb, people just seem to forget how shit everyone else was. Now we have usb-c where companies are required to supply the port but doesn’t have to follow any actual specification, yay for standards.
> who's to blame here
It's ok to wait longer for a product to make sure it's safe instead of the ol' "move fast and break things". Having ever new "interesting" stuff to play with to feed our endless boredom is not the only thing worth caring about.
I live in the EU and can see value in live translation for me personally.
However, I'm happy with the decision. Sure, they are not available right now. But it's worth it for the long term picture. Imagine if this would be yet another Apple/Google-only market.
The tradeoff is right IMO.
+1
And the users here on HN saying "it's expensive/difficult to give the same access to competitors" are beyond naive if they think this isn't about protecting the margins on the airpods by giving their own products access to the system competitors don't have.
And the people on the other side are beyond naive if they think it makes sense financially to develop a feature like this if the company developing it has to give it away for free.
One consequence of the DMA is that you can't build certain products because there is no way to recoup the development cost.
> One consequence of the DMA is that you can't build certain products because there is no way to recoup the development cost.
Poor, poor Apple…
Apple made $23B in profits on hardware last quarter. If that's not enough to recoup costs, there is nothing stopping them from charging for their software as well
Who is “you”? Are you really conflating everyone in this thread with a handful of mega corporations?
> The EU wants Apple to happily accept a burden that makes it harder to produce the products that made it popular in the first place.
Hard disagree.
The time and resources it takes to lock down an ecosystem are far greater than not locking it down.
> It’s enormously difficult to ship any interesting feature that integrates hardware and software. The EU wants Apple to happily accept a burden that makes it harder to produce the products that made it popular in the first place.
Seems easy enough to me, all they have to do is expose and document an api.
What are the tradeoffs? For their own devices nothing changes, and for other devices they need to spend some extra integration work to make sure there's a standard they follow but that work should pale in comparison to the main engineering.
Apple loses the forced bundling but they'll do fine without it and it's a good thing for everyone else.
> for other devices they need to spend some extra integration work to make sure there's a standard they follow
Have you ever built a software product with an API? Would you say it was trivial upfront and ongoing to build and support this API?
Why would Apple have to endure this burden. If a 3rd party maker cannot make their device work the same way with the proper access, it is their own issue and not something Apple should help them figure out. The proper access is the key part, but once that access is open it is up to the devs to figure it out. If their product still has a subpar user experience, that'll be something the market figures out for them
> Why would Apple have to endure this burden.
The same reason they endure the burden of safety certification and employment requirements: it’s the law. It’s not exactly a new concept.
Saying something is the law is never a valid argument in discussions like this. There has been multiple historic examples of things being the law until everyone realized how unethical the original law really was.
> If a 3rd party maker cannot make their device work the same way with the proper access, it is their own issue and not something Apple should help them figure out.
This is NOT expected from Apple and explicitly noted in the ruling.
They are simply not allowed to restrict OS features from competitors in order to frame them as Apple accessory features, because this distorts the competition in this accessory market
I'm not asking for anything beyond proper access.
Your "they" is ambiguous so that I interpreted it as Apple needing to spend extra time.
You interpreted that word correctly. But I would say that part of "proper access" is that it needs to meet basic interoperability levels. That much is Apple's job, and it's not a very big job.
I'm not asking for them to do any work beyond that level for non-Apple devices. If those devices need to run fancy code to make the feature work, that fancy code isn't Apple's job.
(But if the feature just needs to listen to the microphone feed, then I do expect it to work out of the box with any headset. (The firmware updates they're doing to older airpods are not clear evidence one way or the other whether it actually needs on-headset support.))
A third-party maker literally CAN NOT make their devices work the same way.
"Can not" as in "unable because Apple doesn't allow that". All Apple needs to do is whitelist access to certain APIs and provide minimal documentation.
No, that's not so. One of the relevant rulings (https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/2...) dictates that merely providing any API isn't enough. Among other requirements, the API must "properly consider the needs of third parties that will make use of the solution", it must be "properly tested for bugs or other shortcomings", and Apple must "provide adequate and timely assistance to third parties that report issues". A barely hacked-together API that's hard to use without constantly pinging the team who implemented it - entirely normal for the first release of a big new feature - wouldn't be enough.
Yes, and?
> A barely hacked-together API that's hard to use without constantly pinging the team who implemented it - entirely normal for the first release of a big new feature - wouldn't be enough.
Oh, so Apple can't be bothered to be held to the same standard as, say, automotive developers?
Ahh, I see the problem. This may come as a shock to you: a phone is not a car.
Yes, a phone is vastly more important than a personal car right now. You can easily live (especially in Europe) without a car, but a phone is indispensable.
I would have more sympathy for Apple if they behaved ethically, respecting developers and users. They absolutely do not behave ethically, preferring to exploit everything they can.
Turnaround is a fair play, so I'm going to shed zero tears if Apple is forced to spend a couple hundred million dollars (at most) adapting their internal documentation for their APIs.
I don't understand the analogy. Are auto manufacturers in the EU required to publish a detailed spec and robust API for third party backup camera developers?
They are required to provide detailed repair manuals, spare parts, and diagnostic software to independent repair shops.
Funnily their advertisement video show 2 EU residents talking to each other via translation.
I believe they could offer the feature and not face the ire of the EU by "simply" documenting the software interface used by the hardware so that third parties can also try and implement it.
Of course then they wouldn't get the ecosystem lock-in they want. In theory. But I know plenty of people who buy Airpods "because" they're "the best", without ecosystem integration considerations.
A big part of why they're considered the best is features like moving seamlessly between iPhone and mac within seconds of starting audio playback.
It's not as simple as documentation. If you document the interface, you need to keep it somewhat stable and backwards compatible.
But if it is internal, then you control both ends of the API, and can change them in tandem.
Apple?
It's popularity was not rooted in its closeness. Actually that was an annoying side effect of taking the easy way for the organization, not in the interest of the user.
What made it popular were the nice new features. Regardless of how difficult it was for the organization, that is no concern for the user. Taking this easy way allowed them to be faster than others. Sacrificing usability - also making more expensive by lock in - for users of the future!
> It’s enormously difficult to ship any interesting feature that integrates hardware and software. The EU wants Apple to happily accept a burden that makes it harder to produce the products that made it popular in the first place.
Well... yeah? I mean, that's the point. Once you are so big you act as a gatekeeper to a platform, the standards change.
Also let's be clear here: there's minimal actual technology inside those pods. The translation is happening on the phone and the stuff going over the air is audio. Yes, it would be harder to specify an interface for third party headset devices to interact with. It certainly wouldn't be impossible, and I think making that a cost of being a platform gatekeeper seems very reasonable.
It’s Apple who is to blame. The rules are clear. I’m fine not having funny toys if it means holding corporations accountable.
And yes yes plenty of things go wrong in the EU, I know. Still prefer this over Americas lack of laws and ease of bribing a president.
I don't think that the translation feature itself can be considered OS functionality. An API providing on-demand background execution time for apps linked to connected Bluetooth devices would surely be sufficient to comply with the DMA?
As an example, when they were compelled to allow competing browser engines, they didn't open source Safari; they added a multiprocessing/JIT API to iOS (tailored and restricted by policy to browsers). Competitors (web browsers) got access to the OS features (multiprocessing/JIT) that they needed to compete with Apple's product (Safari), but they didn't get access to the product itself and still need to build their own.
In this case, competitors (device makers) might request access to the OS feature (background execution) that they need to compete with Apple's product (live translation on AirPods).
It should also be noted that such functionality only has to be provided if explicitly requested by a developer who is working on a competing product, so they don't have to develop it preemptively.
I'm not saying that this is completely fair or whatever, just that I don't think it's quite as extreme as people are making it out to be?
(I’m an EU-based user of Apple products) I see your point. However, Apple already provides a translation API[0], a speech recognition API[1], and a Text2Speech API[2], so not a lot more is needed than the API you describe. Also note that, while I have not looked into that thoroughly, it seems the kind of API you are discussing shares many similarities with the features of the Apple Vision Pro SDK (real time computation introducing new constraints…)
I think this situation also shows a strong divide between two visions of Apple end-game (and I think both exist within the company): exposing those APIs makes the Apple ecosystem better as a whole, with its satellite accessories/app developers; while keeping them private gives them an edge as a hardware selling company. Personally, I prefer when Apple embraces its gatekeeper status.
[0]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/translation/transl... [1]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/speech [2]: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/avfoundation/speec...
Note that the way Apple is doing this, you can only talk easily to other Apple earphone customers. This is going to be worse than the blue/green message bubble thing.
From what I have seen that is not the case. The AirPods nor connected iPhones are interacting with the other person’s at all.
What I don't understand is how there are now probably a dozen features by Apple that aren't available in the EU, allegedly due to regulations, however every other vendor has no issues providing the same or similar features.
It is not about the features themselves, it's about Apple owning the OS a series of accessories need to connect to and using it as a tool to secure advantages to Apple Headphones/Watches/Payment services/Entertainment.
No. It's a similar situation with certain AI features from Google.
Why should I worry about anti-competitive practice when every third party app is literal spyware mining the everliving crap out of any data source they can get their hands on? We are in a dark age where all apps are borderline malware. Is it anti-competitive to turn my firewall on and to lock my doors too?
In my opinion Apple is the only one acting in the interest of the consumer. These efforts to open up Apple's platform are nothing more than attempts to weaken the security that Apple's customers enjoy by default. How we got here and whether Apple is truly "good" is irrelevant. If you care about your data not being used against you, Apple is your only option.
I doubt I am the only one who feels this level of discomfort with the way other technology companies treat their users (and those who aren't their users).
Google Pixel Buds have a translation feature, and a bunch of other "Gemini AI" gimmicks, available in the EU.
Apple managed to get approvals for medical devices and studies (highly regulated everywhere), custom radios and satellite communication (highly regulated everywhere).
Apple already has machine translation, voice recognition, voice recording, and dictation features shipped in the EU.
But when EU hurt Apple's ego by daring to demand to give users freedom to run software they want on devices they bought (that could break them out of a very lucrative duopoly), Apple suddenly is a helpless baby who cannot find a way to make a new UI available in the EU.
The EU has not declared that Android gatekeeps headphone technology, so the comparison to Pixel Buds is totally irrelevant. There is no interop requirement placed on them.
This is probably due to concern about legal regulations around temporarily recording someone else's voice so it can be processed for translation. After all, there is no mechanism for the person you're talking to to provide "consent", and the EU does have particularly strong laws on this.
Alternatively it might have something to do with the translation being performed in iOS, and the capability not being exposed to competitor audio devices, and therefore Apple needs assurance the EU won't consider it anticompetitive?
Or both.
More likely the second than the first. It’s already the case that you technically “record” the audio at one end and then transmit it to the other. I can also forward a caller to voicemail where their message is transcribed in real time, which is fundamentally the same mechanics.
Or even more likely, as others have suggested, it’s Apple being petty and withholding features from EU users to put pressure on the EU.
>Or even more likely, as others have suggested, it’s Apple being petty and withholding features from EU users to put pressure on the EU.
The EU has threatened massive fines for creating features not available to competitors. And the EU refuses to vet a feature officially in advance.
Under such conditions, how would you distinguish being petty from complying with the law?
The EU probably imagined the outcome would be: change your business practices entirely for the EU, and make all new features open to all, immediately, perpetually, everywhere.
But that's not the norm for the vast majority of companies, for a variety of sensible reasons. Given that it's actually hard to do that, witholding new features until you're told "yes this is ok" is a rational response to the law.
In terms of feature availability, if the law says they need to make it available to all headsets in the EU, then... that's what they need to do. Waiting for an "ok" to violate the law is not sensible at all. Sure they don't have to allow it worldwide, but they do need to allow it in the EU.
Waiting the way you describe only makes sense if they think the implementation probably follows the law, but they're not sure it will be accepted. We could make that argument for privacy rules, we can't in good faith make that argument for interoperability rules.
That's not what the law says. The law says IF they make a feature available in the EU, THEN it must be available to all competitors.
The law does not say you must make all features available in the EU. Generally speaking business regulations don't force companies to offer services. They instead regulate how the service can be offered if offered.
The hidden downside of regulation is a lot of stuff doesn't get built. It's just normally not so visible, but software is distributed worldwide so we can see the effect.
> That's not what the law says. The law says IF they make a feature available in the EU, THEN it must be available to all competitors.
You misread me.
"it" in the phrase "they need to make it available to all headsets in the EU" was referring to features they release in the EU.
So yes you're interpreting the law right, and so am I.
> The hidden downside of regulation is a lot of stuff doesn't get built. It's just normally not so visible, but software is distributed worldwide so we can see the effect.
If the deciding factor in whether something gets built is whether they can lock it to another product, it's usually okay for that thing to not be built.
In this case, they obviously did build it. So now it's a matter of figuring out what the hold up is.
If it's because they don't want to, even though it would make them money and make people in the EU happy, then that's pettiness.
Ah, I see what you're saying. The thing is if it is a cut and dry violation it ought to be in principle possible to say so. And there have been features that were delayed and released and which function the same in the EU as elsewhere. So presumably the implementation is legal but plausibly wasn't.
Now there's a difference between building a feature and building interoperability. You have to actually work at it. And if you rush to do so on every feature:
1. You may modify features you didn't need to
2. You open yourself up to other countries demanding specific software changes
The simplest thing is just to make one version for the world, and wait for an ok. Big downsides to either rushing to release as is or rushing to make a change you may not need to make.
Well the question as to whether it’s a “cut-and-dried” violation depends on information Apple probably isn’t willing to share: is there a specific technical reason this technology can’t be enabled on third party headphones? If there’s a good reason (e.g. the AirPods have a chip in them that does processing on the signal without which it wouldn’t work), then it’s probably fine. If it’s just `if (headphones !== “AirPods)`, then that’s probably not
As far as I understand, the act can’t control what Apple decides to do outside of the EU. Whether Apple has products or features available outside that market means nothing because it’s scoped to that jurisdiction.
I think that whether or not they built the thing does not matter.
I don’t know anything about jurisprudence, much less EU jurisprudence. Is there anything that would make the EU demanding that Apple not restrict these features from the EU to avoid allowing competitor products illegitimate in the eyes of the court? The law would still be only directly affecting the requirements for selling their productions under the EU’s jurisdiction. However it would consider facts about their behavior outside of the EU as essential to showing their noncompliance.
> I can also forward a caller to voicemail where their message is transcribed in real time, which is fundamentally the same mechanics.
Voicemail greetings typically inform the caller the message will be recorded, and there'a often a beep which is an indicator of recording as well. If you don't consent to recording, you can hang up without leaving a message.
I wonder if that translation is actually powered by OpenAI and Apple doesn’t want to pay them for inferencing on behalf of app developers.
Or is it powered entirely by local models?
My understanding is live translations do not require an active Internet connection.
> Live Translation is integrated into Messages, FaceTime, and Phone to help users communicate across languages, translating text and audio on the fly.1 Live Translation is enabled by Apple-built models that run entirely on device, so users’ personal conversations stay personal.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/06/apple-elevates-the-ip...
Pressure on them to do what, if there’s nothing about this proscribed by the EU?
Isn't noise cancelling technically recording people in your environment in this sense then?
Why would it be? Noise cancelling is a DSP over current raw signal, no data storage.
I think the explanation is a lot simpler - iOS to date does not correctly support most European languages. Using Siri in anything other than English is a pain and using the Translate feature is available in only a handful of countries.
For anything remotely powerful enough, iOS will have to send voice to some server for processing and that’s a privacy shit show.
That seems ridiculous, this is a translation feature. Do you think it is aimed at translating American to Canadian? Those pesky niche European languages are hardly spoken in the Americas so maybe that is the case.
Enables tech bros to speak to their street food vendor
British to American.
Genuinely useful to me.
What languages is it mean to translate then? Different accents of English?
Mostly Spanish and Chinese. Arabic and Hindi will already be difficult.
How would this function in two-party consent states like California? My understanding is limited, but from what I've read, this might still violate consent laws unless explicitly disclosed—even in public spaces.
I recently explored building a real-time STT system for sales calls to support cold-calling efforts. However, the consensus from my research was that, even if audio is streamed live without storage, consent laws could still present significant hurdles.
Is this much different than a hearing aid, even in technical detail? A hearing aid will have a small internal buffer containing processed audio. I’m not sure the law will care that the processing is more substantial as long as it’s on-device and ephemeral.
I think it really depends on the legal definition of recording or what it's used for.
Common sense says that a recording that only exists for a few seconds, and is utilized only by the person a speaker is intending to speak to, and is never permanently stored, should be fine. And we can assume Apple has made sure this is legal in its home state of California.
But EU law might not have sufficient legal clarity on this if it was written in a particularly open-ended way.
> even in public spaces
Even in a two party state public spaces are fair game. The Constitution supersedes state law.
The Constitution has nothing to do with this. It constrains the Government, not private actors. And there’s no Constitutional right to a translation service.
You’re probably thinking about warrantless recordings of conversations and the reasonable expectation of privacy requirement. This doesn’t apply here.
The Constitution can definitely restrict the ability of the government to pass laws regulating behavior, and two-party consent statutes are definitely laws that regulate behavior. Whether the object level question is true is a different matter, but I would assume so given that you can point a camera that records audio at people in public at all.
Also, the US Constitution does constrain private actors, all the time. It bans slavery for a very simple example.
At the point where you enable this feature (you wouldn't walk around with it enabled at all times because why?) the phone shows a screen asking you to get consent and the other person touches yes/no and that's it? Or would a signed form with a government seal be required?
IANAL, but from my understanding the user needs to get consent, not Apple. There would be no consent screen, apple would at most give a small dialog warning to the user that this usage is illegal (for the user). unless every participant has given consent
> How would this function in two-party consent states like California?
It won't. Regulations permit sound recording, as long as it's not stored. Speech-to-text and hearing aids for disabled people are an example of permitted uses.
Also potentially AI Act concerns. Quite a lot of things involving our good friends the magic robots have a delayed launch in the EU, because they need to be compliant, whereas the space is for practical purposes completely unregulated in most other places.
That same issue would apply in California, which is a two party consent state.
So consumers will just buy from another brand and use that instead?
I get the Apple is trying to spread propaganda that anti-competitive laws are bad for consumers, but in this case, consumers will just buy from another brand and it's a simple net loss for Apple.
What dividends this propaganda would bring? Apple is making their product less compelling in a market where they have lower share than in the other markets where this feature will be available.
They are simply weighting potential fines / loss of revenues due to being forced to share technology with competition against monetary losses due to fewer sales. So far fewer sales win.
Except many users are already locked into Apple's ecosystem, so they will be very angry.
What does it mean to be locked in, exactly? I just bought a pair of Shokz headphones and they work perfectly well with my iPhone. I didn't feel like I was forced to buy AirPods.
Locked into iPhone.
I want to switch to Android, but I have all the following problems:
1. iMessage, unlike whatsapp etc, does not have an android app, and some of my family uses iMessage, so I would be kicked from various group chats
2. My grandma only knows how to use facetime, so I can't talk to her unless I have an iPhone
3. My apple books I purchased can't be read on android
4. Lose access to all my apps (android shares this one)
5. I have a friend who uses airdrop to share maps and files when we go hiking without signal, and apple refuses to open up the airdrop protocol so that I can receive those from android, or an airdrop app on android
6. ... I don't have a macbook, but if I did the sreen sharing, copy+paste sharing, and iMessage-on-macos would all not work with android.
It's obvious that apple has locked in a ton of stuff. Like, all other messages and file-sharing protocols except iMessage and airdrop work on android+iOS. Books I buy from google or amazon work on iOS or android.
Apple is unique here.
Legitimately not trying to be coy, but would you consider a game like Fortnite to be an instance of "lock-in" for teenagers? For instance, a teenager might say:
1. Fortnite doesn't have an iPhone app, so if I switch to iOS I can't play with my friends
2. My friends only play Fortnite, so I can't play with them unless I play Fortnite.
3. My skins can't be used on Roblox.
4. I lose access to all my custom worlds
5. Other game engines don't work for building Fortnite custom worlds, I have to use Unreal.
It feels like a certain amount of lock-in is expected just from network effects of products, no?
There is a certain amount of expected "lock-in" for social media and network effects, as you say.
I think there are classes of product that have an outsized amount of power and should be subject to more strict judgement on this however.
ISPs, payment processors, web browsers, general purpose operating systems, etc... all of these should not discriminate and give partners an unfair leg up.
Chrome should not block bing.com from loading, and should publish everything needed for anyone to write a webpage Chrome can render. Windows should not block iTunes from running, and should publish specs on how to write software for win32 APIs. iOS should publish airdrop specs to allow alternative implementations.
The rest of my complaints amount more to norms for certain things. It has become the norm that someone who sells digital books, music, or movies allows people to access them on the platforms they're on (spotify works on iOS and android, ditto for youtube music, etc etc). Apple is the only company I know of that abuses an OS+Media monopoly for basically all media, like Amazon has the Kindle, but they still let you read books on normal Android too. Apple is violating the norm in a way that feels intended to create an anti-competitive moat.
Similarly, every other messaging app is cross-platform, and iMessage not being cross platform, banning users who use it on android (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39156308), and refusing to publish their own android app, that also feels like it violates the norms of messaging apps in a way that is either gross incompetence, or anti-competitive.
I think Fortnite doesn't qualify as an "operating system" because it can't gatekeep how someone interacts with competitors. If, in some weird future, Epic started selling "Fortnight Decks" (like the steam deck), included the "Deck Apps" app store, and it became a general way of computing for some appreciable fraction of kids, then yes, I think that hypothetical "Deck Apps" store and the device could have such lock-in and I'd have the same complaints.
I also think if fortnight became the default way the next generation communicates (akin to iMessage), it would indeed be wildly anti-competitive if they partnered with Google, and made it so the chat app was only available on ChromeOS.
However, as it is now, Fortnite isn't violating norms, nor is it going out of its way to gatekeep access to the community, nor is it anyone's gateway to general computing, so it doesn't feel comparable to iMessage, nor to the app store.
Also, what do you mean by "coy" there? I don't understand the meaning in that context.
The position of the EU (correctly) is that they would work even better if Apple gave them the same level of access to your phone that they award to their own headphones.
Yes, I definitely want "Shockz" to be able to run background daemons on my phone for proximity pairing and god knows what else a fly by night OEM might want to do. That would make my phone work much, much better.
The relevant question for Apple is here:
Will those users buy OTHER headphones than Apple then, or still buy Airpods...?
From my observation the "properly locked-in" Apple user buys Airpods and mostly replaces them with newer Airpods when needed, because of Apple's artificial advantage in ecosystem interoperability (the exact reason of the dispute with the EU)
Yeah but disputes like Apples with the EU can take 10 years to litigate and settle by the time Apple has raked in more billions and crushed more competitors. So they know they can keep stalling and appealing as time works in their favor.
Maybe, but currently it seems that Apple prefers to not "litigate while crushing the competition", but instead "retreat and rally up the userbase". So at least in this aspect the DMA seems to work surprisingly well...
I also think there is little for them to litigate at this point, they were exchanging extensively for more than a year on how to reach compliance, then the decision [0] was made.
There are also separate procedures for the specification of compliance and investigating (non)compliance. Apple might continue to have a hard time litigating on non-compliance if they co-worked with the EU on the exact expectation of compliance beforehand.
https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/2...
Poor customers, they didn't know Apple ecosystem was closed. They only had 15 years to find out about it!
Have you ever tried bluetooth audio devices on an iPhone/ iPad?
Apple does this very clever, it works, but it has so many annoyances and bugs. By making 3th party products “annoying” to use, Apple nudges people to just buy Apple products/the ecosystem…
> Have you ever tried bluetooth audio devices on an iPhone/ iPad?
Every day. But I never ran into what you suggest. My iPad is not more annoying than my Dell laptop when it comes to Bluetooth (and both are light years away from my Linux box).
But if they allowed it, more people would buy the Apple feature because it would work better when both software and hardware are integrated.
What about UK now that we’re not part of the EU anymore
I tried looking this up and it sounds like it will be supported. But then again, we don’t have the ability to install Fortnite as that’s blocked in the EU.
My understanding is that this works on-device (via the iPhone), so I wonder what the regulatory issue is.
Perhaps the regulations treat is as if you’re “recording” the person you’re speaking with, without their consent?
Apple's response to EU's attempt to open up App Store has been full of pettiness, tantrums, and malicious compliance.
Apple is most likely withholding features in EU as a bargaining chip in antitrust negotiations, and to discredit EU's consumer protections. Pretending things in Europe are randomly unknowably illegal for no reason supports Apple's narrative and popular opinion in the US.
Apple is using the conservative approach, which is to misrepresent their starting position by moving the goal posts to an extreme. Then they bargain towards the "middle". It creates the illusion of bargaining.
So Apple is throwing a huge tantrum and withholding features from the EU to act like this is a much bigger deal than it is. This gives Apple a lot more bargaining room after the EU bitch slapped them.
Apple likely already has an API they could enable and be done with this. They won't do that. Apple needs exclusivity with new feature releases because they don't do things all that well anymore(Siri, maps, etc, nobody uses those because there are better alts available on ios).
But yeah Apple is just starting way to the extreme so they have more room to bargain. Hopefully the EU sees through this, again, and doesn't budge.
Is there any evidence for this at all? The EU has plenty of regulation surrounding audio recording, as other comments have said. Instead of jumping to the assumption of malicious intent, I think those make more sense up front. I don't think this is a real bargaining chip for Apple to use against the EU for the side loading stuff.
I dislike Apple's malicious compliance with the EU too, but it seems unrelated here, at least without any proof.
Google Pixel Buds and Samsung Galaxy Buds basically provide the same feature of realtime translation. Either Apple is withholding the feature without any real cause, or the cause lies in some aspect where Apple doesn’t allow third-party manufacturers to provide the same feature under iOS, while Android does. I don’t know which is the case, but both put Apple in a bad light, along with the fact that they don’t explain the exact reason for the limitation.
It would not remotely surprise me to discover that either Google or Samsung were doing something untoward that Apple is not willing to do. In fact, that would be one of the least surprising things I'd ever heard.
In this case, it's apple doing the untoward thing, by artificially limiting users' devices, seemingly only for anticompetitive reasons.
As this is HackerNews, you should expect to see at least a couple commenters who believe they should have control over devices they own, including interoperability without artificial, anticompetitive limitations.
> In this case, it's apple doing the untoward thing, by artificially limiting users' devices, seemingly only for anticompetitive reasons.
Not really. They are complying by not offering features that would be considered anti-competitive. It’s not untoward, it’s just following their interpretation of the law. We obviously don’t know the discussions between Apple and the EC, but in public it’s American nerds who are complaining that the EU is bad.
Do no US states have similar laws regarding recording strangers?
They do, but most states only require one party to consent.
Notably California, home to apple, is a two party state.
The EU said that everything that Apple creates for its own devices has to have APIs for third parties. The translation feature only works for AirPods.
Ok so it's not "airpods live translation" really, but "ios live translation" and there's no technical reason to limit it to airpods?
Or other services, such as translation using Google Translate.
The audio input comes from the AirPods not the iPhone. It’s processed on the iPhone.
The audio is captured by the outward facing microphones used for active noise cancellations. That’s why it only works for AirPods Pro 2, 3 and AirPods 4 with ANC. That wouldn’t just work with any headphones.
Even the AirPods Pro 2 will need a firmware update. They won’t work with just any old headphones and seeing that even the AirPods Pro 2 need a firmware update tells me that it is something they are doing with their H2 chip in their headphones in concert with the iPhone.
I mean, technically, any competitors with noise cancelling headphones able to pick up a voice stream would be able to use the same processing on the iPhone to offer an equivalent feature.
That it only works with AirPods is just Apple discriminating in favour of their own product which is exactly what the EU was going after.
Sure if they also want to train a model that supports their sound profile, build an app that captures the audio, etc.
But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient.
They may even be able to use the exposed models on the phone.
> But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient.
The equivalent feature on Android tells me it would. I mean it already does technically.
Are we supposed to treat Apple being late to the party as usual as some kind of exceptional thing only them could do?
According to the specs - it only works with Google’s own headphones
https://support.google.com/googlepixelbuds/answer/7573100?hl...
Which are the same price as Apple’s AirPods with ANC.
So Google also didn’t try to support the feature with generic earbuds.
The contrary is literally written in a large yellow box on the page you linked: “Note: Google Translate works with all Assistant-optimized headphones and Android phones.”
But I mean, you are free to buy overpriced Apple headphones which sounds worse than Sony, only properly works paired with an Apple phone or laptop and whose killer feature was available on their competitors buds years ago if that rocks your boat.
I have both a pair of the over ear Sony XM4’s and AirPods Pro 2 and I’m not sure I’d characterize the Sony’s sound as “better”, even when using lossless audio. They sound good but the sound profile is mostly just different, with the Sony’s leaning more bassy and the AirPods more balanced.
The noise cancellation are neck and neck but the AirPods had much less of that “pressure” sensation when using it. AirPods transparency is just plain better. Comfort for long use sessions is better on the Sony’s. Mic is better on the AirPods.
There's no EQ in the Sony iPhone app?
There is, but I haven’t had the patience to tweak that. My phone also isn’t the device that I usually use those headphones with.
You didn’t look at the prices of other “Google assistant” compatible headphones did you?
And those Sony ones aren’t cheap.
The first review I found comparing them..
https://wasteofserver.com/sony-wf-1000xm4-vs-apple/
Why would I want to by a none Apple laptop with horrible battery life, loud, and that produces enough heat to ensure that I don’t have offspring if I actually put it on my lap?
Over the course of this thread your argument went from "It's not technically possible" and "they will have to train their own models" to "I don't want to buy certain devices".
No I said it wasn’t technically possible on any cheap headphones because while the processing was done on the phone, the audio capture was done by the outside microphones on Apple headphones that have ANC and even the older ones of those required Apple to update the firmware on its own AirPods working in concert.
This is no different than Google not supporting just any old headphones.
Then the argument came that Apple’s AirPods are “overpriced” even though the cheapest AirPods that support it - AirPods 4 with ANC are in the same price range as Google’s and cheaper than the worse sounding and more expensive Sony Earbuds.
I prefer the Apple ecosystem myself but the Sony WF-1000XM are frequently available on sale (refurb WF-1000XM5 are $110 right now). I used to have the WH-1000XM3 (over the ear) and those are good too.
The whole argument seems kind of silly. Just buy the platform you want that has the features you want. If the European thinks Apple is overpriced then it's no harm that they aren't bringing features to Europe. He wasn't going to buy them and now is going to not buy them even harder.
As a reminder, the initial argument was that Apple doesn’t bring their feature to Europe because they would have to open it via an API to their competitors. Someone replied that it’s not a refusal but a technical impossibility which is easily countered by Google having done just that for years. The fact that it’s heavily downvoted despite being factually completely correct is actually hilarious to me.
The rest, which is to say that everything Apple sells beside laptops is subpar, their strategy regarding European regulations deprive them of any credibility when they pretend to care about consumers and their prices conversion in Europe is daylight robbery, is just my opinion and accessory to the discussion. I just couldn’t help myself.
No one said it’s a “technical impossibility”. The original statement was that it wouldn’t work on any cheap headphones. It’s assumed that you thought the iPhone was capturing the audio. Even then, there was some work done between the headphones and the phone and the firmware of the AirPods 2 had to be updated.
You aren’t going to save any money by getting a pair of $50 ANC headphones and hoping they work with the system - the Android variant doesn’t.
> It’s assumed that you thought the iPhone was capturing the audio.
Absolutely not. It assumed the AirPods Pro 2 unique processing was required which it clearly isn’t.
Nobody ever talked about saving money.
The whole discussion is about the EU mandating Apple play fair which would mean letting competitors access their phone processing exactly like Google is already doing.
> Nobody ever talked about saving money.
You didn’t say this?
> But I mean, you are free to buy overpriced Apple headphones
> which sounds worse than Sony,
And the Sony headphones sound worse and are more expensive.
> only properly works paired with an Apple phone or laptop
Which also isn’t true.
> But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient.
Maybe, maybe not. Assuming Apple's motivation isn't pure self-dealing, it's very consistent with Apple's behavior to forbid or impede doing things that are absolutely possible but sometimes result in a sub-par experience.
How many $60 headphones work with Google’s version?
It's oddly difficult to find solid answers to this with a web search, but it appears that it just needs protocol support, not a mic that meets specific standards. The (discontinued?) JBL 110GA is $40 on Amazon.
Which I’m not able to find on Amazon…
All of them.
Not according to the official specs….
Also the feature doesn't work on Android, so it is not an 'AirPods' feature but a 'iOS'+'AirPods' feature.
> Europe are randomly unknowably illegal for no reason
I mean they absolutely are especially as EU regulators categorically refuse to review anything in advance just in-case their get a budget shortfalls and need to go looking for fines.
If it works on device then it should be easy for another headphone maker to integrate it. Except Apple doesn't let them do that.
It’s not that simple - when implementing this one runs into the issue that detecting self speech is a solved problem - BUT detecting the speech of a person talking AT you in a restaurant is not nearly that easy - this is known as diarization. This needs custom models - and I am willing to bet the model for the iPhone is tuned specifically to the AirPods . How would they even provide that? And I’d bet that the customer microphones in the AirPods provide a much better time synced stream to the phone than just a random pair of phones - I’d be willing to bet this is not just Bluetooth, but also out of band clock drift, etc. Which allows for much better phase data - which makes training diarization models simpler- and makes the accurate. So - I’d bet there is a per headset model here - and one that probably requires more than just audio.
The issue the EU has is much simplr than this. They are not requesting Apple to provide a model that works for their competitors headphones, they are requesting they also allow their competitors to run their own models the same way Apple allows the AirPods to.
Quite a burden to provide an ecosystem. I mean doesn't this extend to anything you want it to extend to? From AirDrop to the complete feature set of the AirTag and FindMy ecosystem. Your non Apple airtag has to show up in FindMy or at least be capable of being added? You have ultra-wideband features for AirTag. You need to make that available too?
If I were Apple, I'd say you got what you want EU, it works on ALL earphones in EU. But it will be absolutely terribly shitty because we will use the same model trained for our AirPods on your random headphones.
You're using a third party BLE airtag and clicking on UWB? Enjoy tracking this approximate noisy location that we're basing off of some noise pattern we didn't lock on.
Feature provided, just not well. Goes against Apple's ethos of trying to make things polished but don't let some bureaucrats weaponize that against you.
Nobody is forcing Apple, the gatekeeper to the iPhone and iOS ecosystem, to also make headphones and compete in that totally separate market, but they are of course free to.
The issue arises when Apple leverages their position as gatekeeper to anticompetitively preference their own headphones in the iPhone/iOS ecosystem. Can't do that.
> If I were Apple, I'd say you got what you want EU, it works on ALL earphones in EU. But it will be absolutely terribly shitty because we will use the same model trained for our AirPods on your random headphones.
The problem for Apple is that they have no secret sauce here: absent any ratfuckery, it would probably work just as well with competing headsets, if not better (particularly since many of Apple's competitors' headsets have better sound quality, better microphone quality, and better noise cancellation). That's probably why they aren't taking your suggestion and are instead choosing anticompetitive behavior.
> The problem for Apple is that they have no secret sauce here: absent any ratfuckery, it would probably work just as well with competing headsets.
Yeah, I'd believe it. There is a good chance that is very much the case here.
What about Switzerland? Although not in the EU, it often inherits such regulation
if I have a US account and I travel to the EU, that should work?
Yes.
Yeah make it work in the US where you can fly 4 hours in any direction and still land somewhere that speaks the same language, and not in Europe where a 1:30h drive takes you through 3 different countries that don't know how to talk to each other...
Where do you live? I could easily find people who speak, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Hindu, Telugu, English, Spanish, Thai, and Portuguese and I haven’t even left the parking lot. It would be harder to find a German or French speaker.
Do all these people also speak some English?
(I live in NYC where the mix of languages is thick, but I rarely have to reach even for my Spanish, because English is still commonly understood everywhere, at least to some degree.)
Not all of them, no. Where I am (California) there are a lot of monolingual or barely functional in English speakers of Spanish and Mandarin. Also where I live specifically, Vietnamese and Cambodian. Those are all seniors though.
In Chinatown on Manhattan, there are areas like that (though I suppose the senior citizens mostly speak Cantonese there). Many of the store signboards are in Chinese only, and inside, the labels may also be only in Chinese; then only the fact that I still remember a bunch of kanji allows me to tell a duck from a chicken, when both are wrapped in impenetrable dark plastic.
Yeah I know the area. My wife and I have been through there a few times (she is from Taiwan). Lots of people who barely speak any English at all, but you might not know if you didn’t speak Chinese.
That kindly old man making noodles behind the counter on that restaurant you frequent off Canal St? The one that always has a stoic face and never says a word? He doesn’t speak any English, but try chatting with him in Mandarin and he’ll talk your ear off with his life story.
I have personally been to places in NYC (and surrounding areas like Newark) where the staff does not speak any English at all.
The area I and in mind the answer is yes. But there are areas where it would be no. I’m in the Deep South.
It also works in the entire Rest of World outside the EU
13-14% of the US population speak Spanish at home.
In Texas and other parts of the US, Spanish is a primary language for many. Even when they speak a second language, better communication comes for all by using the language they're most comfortable with.
You can blame the EU for that, not Apple.
No you should absolutely blame apple for that. They fear to lose their monopoly and want to set an example for other countries.
Sorry that’s not how facts work. Try to keep your feelings out of it.
Please make it not ad hominem. That gets old quite quickly.
If the facts are clear please show them. Show the fact that the EU made the decision to not have this feature instead of apple.
> Show the fact that the EU made the decision to not have this feature instead of apple.
It is thanks to EU regulations, which are literal facts in front of us. That’s why the feature isn’t shipped in the EU, because of EU’s own choices. At this point it’s clear you’d rather ignore that, so no reason to keep engaging. One last time: this is on the EU, not Apple.
Which facts? Do you have some facts that explain why Apple did this move? Because all the facts I know of paint a picture of Apple throwing a massive tantrum at any kind of consumer protection rulings they might be subject to. They would ABSOLUTELY make their products worse in the EU to make uninformed voters and consumerist victims blame the very government agencies protecting them.
This feature happens on the phone, not the AirPods. There is no reason at all why this shouldn't be available in the EU, except the consumer friendly need to provide the API for the feature to other device manufacturers.
One last time: this is on the EU, not Apple. The feature works everywhere else. You’re mixing up feelings with facts, and it shows in this rant. Take a breather.
This is because Apple doesn't want to compete in a way that is considered fair in the EU. Fortunately we don't let companies set the rules here.
You’re free to have that feeling but that’s not the facts.
Like I agree it’s anti-competitive, but it’s not Apple that’s making it illegal in Europe.
It’s alike Chinese cars that are being made and used everywhere, but cannot be imported to US because of huge tariffs that was put by the government. So it’s the government that’s blocking the citizens from the access to the product.
I can easily drive one and half miles in Orlando to my barber shop where half the barbers only speak Spanish. I’m not complaining, it forces me to use my A1-A2 level Spanish fluency.
Whole neighborhoods in Miami where the primary language is Spanish and many of the inhabitants barely speak English
Since it’s on device - it probably sucks anyway
I wish technology is not blocked that easily. I doubt people want this feature to be banned. Apple's live translation is probably the greatest feature of the last 30 years. I wanted it so bad, I lived in India and South-East Asia for 3 years, it would definitely make my experience SO much better.
> I wish technology is not blocked that easily.
It's not technology that's being blocked here, it's uncompetitive commercialisation that is (at least in the EU)
You can create an American account and login with that on your phone. App Store account can be separate.
I’d rather not have my conversations recorded and sent to a third party, without my knowledge, so that your experience could be SO much better.
Translation happens on-device.
should disneyland also be required to reserve spaces for competing attractions?
That's not going far enough. Disneyland should make its IP available to any competing ride vendor for free (sorry, not free, $99/yr) so that they too can build the same special effects people come to expect from Disneyland.
How dare you assert that Disneyland is working for free in such a scenario?
$99/yr is clearly a fair and reasonable compensation to license all Disney IP for any purpose because Disney has an eleventy bajillion percent margin on ticket sales.
I made an account just to jump in here because this debate infuriates me every time I see it. So basically all the stuff that makes apple devices actually measurably better has to be opened up so that some rando can make a half hacked together attempt at compatibility? For what? So that people have even more rubbish e-waste to choose from?
Apple's main strength is their flawless ecosystem, everything made by apple works perfectly with everything else made by apple.
My airpods switch seamlessly between my apple devices, my watch unlocks all my stuff, my phone can be used as a camera and mic for my macbook, all of my devices besides my earbuds can be used to pay for things. All of it works completely seamlessly, no annoying popups, no dialog boxes, no asking for permission ten million times, no random disconnects. Literally no friction at all, once a new device is set up it's done. This frictionless-ness needs Apple's proprietary modifications to standards to function and it needs Apple's devices to be individually secure and all of these seamless connections need to also be secure.
If users want that then they buy apple.
If users want the spam ridden garbage hole that is Google's Play Store, or the terrible jamming of Android into poor quality cheap devices or the rubbish quality of most consumer tech in general then they can buy whatever they want but I don't want $10 aliexpress smartwatches to be able to seamlessly connect to my phone. I don't want random bluetooth earbuds from the petrol station to be able to access an API that lets them send transcripts of my calls anywhere they like and I definitely don't want a low barrier to entry for devices that can airdrop me stuff or paste to my macbook if I'm out and about.
Mybe Apple should just lock it's devices down so that they only work with other Apple devices full stop. Then there wouldn't be a market for compatible devices to compete in. I'd be happy because I have never once bought a non-apple device that I care about connecting to my phone. I'd have to buy a new monitor but that's ok.
All consumer tech right now is literally rebadges or mild modificatioins of stuff from AliExpress and I don't want that in my nice clean ecosystem. If these competitors want to actually compete then how about they make something that's actually better in some way instead of just hamfistedly copying whatever Apple comes up with? Live translation exists on google devices, if you want non-apple accessories and live translation then just buy a pixel and pixel buds? Nobody forces anyone to buy into apple's ecosystem.
I have switched between ecosystems multiple times and every single time I ended up back with Apple since I bought my first iPhone 5 back when they were new. The issues that android and windows devices have far outweigh the cost of Apple lockin. Especially for someone who just wants their devices to work as what they are and doesn't care about tinkering with them.
As the saying goes: Looks like you're not EU's target audience. You're free to move elsewhere. /s
On a serious note, why would apple-apple integration stop working just because apple stops blocking competition?
Another issue with Apple and I’m a fully invested die hard. 25 years now. But this is taking too far, I might start looking somewhere else. Fuck this.
The EU only exports regulations these days.
What are the alternatives?
I doubt Apple would have done this had the US had Harris as a president rather than Trump.
I find it interesting how US big tech is increasingly mimicking the politics of the Trump administration. From this sorta token anti-EU thing to free speech for right wing nationalists, less so for pro-palestine voices.
I put it down to self-preservation amongst big tech and should the political winds change, they will follow immediately.
Unfortunate. Europe, it seems to me, would be one of the more useful places on Earth to have this technology since there are so many languages in use. It could even strengthen European cultural heritage by allowing everyone to speak in their native language day-to-day instead of converging everything to English.
GDPR is solid. But main reason is that it's just hard to make it work with the AI act, various languages could also be the reason (product not adding enough value to customers?)
> Apple doesn't give a reason for the restriction
If there were real issues with GDPR or the AI Act Apple would have nothing to lose and everything to gain by mentioning at least the generalities of _why_. But they did no such thing so we can only assume it is not any of those things which are the real issues.
> Apple would have nothing to lose and everything to gain by mentioning at least the generalities of _why_
Really? You can't imagine any reasons Apple wouldn't want to have a public PR battle about its disagreements with its primary regulator in the market? Have you ever worked with the government?
Apple regularly have PR battles with governments, this week they openly sponsored a study on the App Store in Brazil to defend their ability to be the only store on iOS. Recently they fought UK publicly regarding encryption. And they have fought FBI publicly with press releases and interviews regarding similar things. Apple executives have also publicly spoken about their disagreements with DMA in 2024 and 2025.
I'd be surprised if this isn't about data residency and gdpr. As someone using the headphones you may end up becoming a "data processor" in gdpr-legal terms.
You've not given the person being recorded any way to exercise their legal rights around collecting, inspecting and deleting their data.
Given that Android phones and earbuds have been providing similar features in the EU for a while, that seems unlikely.
I did not know that, and I agree.
GDPR is about collection and processing of personally identifiable information. These are specific legal terms that depend on the context in which the data is collected and used, not just broadly any data anywhere that might have something to do with a person.
GDPR is aimed at companies building user databases, not allowing them to completely ignore security, accuracy, user complaints, and sell anything to anybody while lying about it. It doesn't limit individual people's personal use of data.
GDPR doesn’t mention “personally identifiable information” once; it’s concerned with personal data, which is “any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’)”.
The rest is correct: the restrictions are aimed at organisations, not individuals.
[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679/oj/eng#art_4.tit_...
The restrictions are not aimed at organisations, but to protect individuals.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/domestic-cctv-usi...
"If your CCTV system captures images of people outside the boundary of your private domestic property – for example, from neighbours’ homes or gardens, shared spaces, or from public areas – then the GDPR and the DPA will apply to you. You will need to ensure your use of CCTV complies with these laws. If you do not comply with your data protection obligations you may be subject to appropriate regulatory action by the ICO, as well as potential legal action by affected individuals."
You, as an individual, have data protection obligations, if your ring doorbell captures audio/video about someone outside your property boundaries. The apple translation service seems analogous.
The ICO is pretty zealous though in this regard. To quote recital 18:[1]
This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data by a natural person in the course of a purely personal or household activity and thus with no connection to a professional or commercial activity.
[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679/oj/eng#rct_18
It's likely taken the view that "purely personal or household activity" only covers the recording of audio/video in a domestic setting.
GDPR does covers individual's use of eg Ring doorbells insofar as recording video and audio outside of your own property. This would seem to be analogous.
GDPR is aimed at protecting _individual's_ personal information, irrespective of what or who is collecting or processing it.
I mean studying a technology with this scale to assess its impact before allowing it freely is… not terrible?
Yes, it is terrible. We should have and support proactionary policies, not regressive precautionary restrictions.
What do you mean? Aren't EU regulations obsolete now and unable to keep up with economic realities, causing the EU to lose its competitive edge? My Airpods told me so!
The whole US economy is propped up by FAANG which are either data collectors, surveillance tools, ad delivery mechanism or competing to suck your attention out of your body, you can keep your competitive edge.
> whole US economy is propped up by FAANG
This is nonsense. The stock market had been propped up by FAANG. But with AI we have a few trillion dollars of value being created by new entrants (e.g. OpenAI, xAI, Anthropic) and legacy companies newly stepping on FAANG (e.g. Oracle, Perplexity).
It may all be a fever dream. But like the dark fiber of the 90s, it should—worst case—leave behind a lot of energy and datacentre infrastructure. (If Washington would get out of the way.)
The AI companies that are famously making massive profits and have found a well working way to make money, correct? They aren't just propped up by the sale of a fantasy world full of money that's always just a couple months or years away. Just a couple billion more, I swear.
"our companies are worth gazillion units of the money we print like there is no tomorrow and which isn't actually backed by any tangible thing"
Yeah OK, cool I guess
And none of those are public companies and no one knows how much any of those companies are worth.
Right now using the valuation technique that tge value of a company is the net present value of all future returns * some multiple, we don’t know if any of them will ever be valuable.
> using the valuation technique that tge value of a company is the net present value of all future returns some multiple, we don’t know if any of them will ever be valuable*
This metric has nothing to do with whether a company is public or private.
But no one knows how much a company is truly worth until it goes on the public market and if all of the private companies “worth billions” went under, only VCs would be harmed. This isn’t like the dot com bust.
> no one knows how much a company is truly worth until it goes on the public market
Nobody ever knows what a company is worth other than the people buying and selling it in an M&A transaction at that precise moment. Public markets just have more transactions than private markets—the mechanism of price discovery is similar, if not the same.
> if all of the private companies “worth billions” went under, only VCs would be harmed
I’d be shocked if it didn’t take out the banking system.
You’re describing the annihilation of trillions of dollars of pension, endowment and retirement wealth; to say nothing of the effects on municipal, state and federal payroll finances; to say nothing of the asset-backed loans tied to these assets and purchases they make from public companies and their employees’ spending.
Private equity makes up less than 1% of pensions
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/11/private-equity-wants-a-large...
Is significantly more for pensions. The article says 1% of retirement is for retirement plans, which are predominantly 401ks.
The article claims pensions, on the other hand, as one of the leading investors in private equity.
The term retirement plan is radically different from pensions.
By way of example, your local teachers union pension is probably massively invested to private equity. Your tech worker 401k is not.
Shouldn’t the lack of any major tech companies out of the EU and comparatively piss poor comp of tech workers tell you that?
I was being facetious, but no... I think the quality of life, in terms of livability, in the EU is much higher than in the US. I would much rather have strong social and consumer and legal protections and healthcare and safety nets than strong corporations that rule everything.
If you're rich, I'm sure the US is great. If you're not, it's not a great place to live.
Americans consume more goods and services, live in larger homes, and have a higher material standard of living than Europeans, on the median. The US does spend much more on healthcare, but the outcomes are largely comparable to Europe’s (meaning universal healthcare has not actually given Europeans a clear advantage in lived results).
Source: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/americans-are-generally-richer...
Europeans also get mandated parental leave and vacation time, far better labour laws, better health-related regulatory conditions (e.g. food, drugs, agriculture, environment, gun control, etc.), and so on, and don't go bankrupt and lose everything because of a heart attack or pregnancy complications.
Having a big house and more money doesn't mean you have a better life; this seems to be the main point of the article you linked, but your comment seems to imply that you missed that point (though I could be misreading). Case in point, this quote from the blog:
> I could go on, but the pattern is pretty clear. The U.S. in general is less healthy and less safe than Europe.
> Having a big house and more money doesn't mean you have a better life; this seems to be the main point of the article you linked, but your comment seems to imply that you missed that point (though I could be misreading). Case in point, this quote from the blog: [...]
No, I didn't miss the point; there's excellent data in that article for people who think the US is a great place to live, and people who think Europe is a great place to live. That's the beauty of the article, and the crux of my point: both of those groups can be correct – there's no single "this is the greatest place to live for all human beings, periodt" out there. The article concludes:
> But as one final thought, I’d like to offer the hypothesis that life is just about equally as good in all developed countries. There’s personal preference, of course — if you want a big house and a lawn, you might prefer America or Canada, whereas if you want national health insurance and lower crime rates, you might prefer Japan or France. But in terms of where the average person would want to live given the choice, I think all these rich countries are in the same ballpark.
Sorry but the outcomes are not comparable.
Average infant mortality rate in the USA: 5.6 per thousand Average infant mortality rate in the EU: 3.25 per thousand
Life expectancy in the USA: 78.4 years Life expectance in the EU: 81.7 years
Frankly I think we need to establish a definition for comparable if you're going to nitpick the numbers of infant mortality rates and life expectancy between two modern Western democracies. The average infant mortality rate in Canada is 4.4 deaths per thousand, is that comparable to the EU? The UAE is sitting pretty at 4 per thousand so that's obviously more comparable than Canada. Russia's at 6.42 so they're out.
Anyway, my point is those numbers are comparable when there are countries like Mexico, Brazil and India out there with an infant mortality rate of 11, 12.5 and 25 deaths per thousand, respectively.
(For the record I don't think the US is a better place to live than the EU, I just don't think it's worse either.)
The numbers seem perfectly comparable though?
You really think the USA having nearly twice as big an infant mortality rate is nitpicking?
Well, don’t look at the GINI coefficient then.
I mean, sure the USA is closer to the EU than developing countries but if that’s your argument, that’s not putting the bar very high.
>You really think the USA having nearly twice as big an infant mortality rate is nitpicking?
Come on, are you going to make my argument so easy? Twice of two drops of nothing is four drops of nothing. You're nitpicking numbers that frankly don't make a difference because they're too close to matter. But don't argue with me, argue with the author of the article where you can see all of the data and comparisons for yourself.
The difference between the US and the EU is the same that between the US and Kazakhstan. I’m sorry but that’s not a small difference at all.
The US infant mortality rate is shameful. Not as shameful as its poverty and homelessness rates but still shameful anyway.
And the difference between Romania's mortality rate and Italy's mortality rate is shameful, how could the EU let there be such a stark gap between them?
I'm just not interested in nitpicking superfluous numbers with you. You've got the data in front of you showing that outcomes are, by and large, the same across the US and Europe, but you've decided to plant some jingoistic flag on a molehill of miniscule differences when there are countries in your own union with equally "shameful" results.
Please don't waste my time further by harping on these minute differences, I won't respond.
> how could the EU let there be such a stark gap between them?
It doesn’t. A significant share of the EU budget actually goes toward helping the poorest members in catching up.
> You've got the data in front of you showing that outcomes are, by and large, the same across the US and Europe
Sorry but the data shows the reverse of that. I’m not wasting your time. You are in denial.
The US has high consumption but garbage metrics of approximately everything else. The GINI coefficient is extremely high. The infant mortality rate is poor. Life expectancy is bad for an OCDE country. Homelessness is so high you could believe it’s a developing country. Imprisonment rate, awful, literacy rate, very poor for a developed nation, social mobility, very low, the list goes on and on.
The USA is paradoxical in that it’s the only rich democracy which actually doesn’t take care of its population.
I’m glade you have the privilege of being rich there and I know you have been indoctrinated from birth into believe the US is exceptional, still, the numbers don’t actually look that good when you look at them.
Dead babies are drops of nothing. The lack of empathy here is astounding.
We're talking about statistics here, don't moralize at me for not putting your preferred amount of reverence around the number at hand.
Quality of life depends on wealth creation to finance it.
This and social benefits are becoming unaffordable as the economy falls behind.
spitting-drink-out-laughing.gif
but how would these airpods really be able to know you're in the EU? this should be easily hackable
It's just for registrations that are associated with EU based iCloud accounts.
Live translation requires a connected iPhone. It’s the regional settings on the phone, plus the region of the Apple account.
The feature requires both the airpods and a connected iPhone to work. The phone has GPS.
De
It makes sense that increased regulation will delay feature release. This is a trade off that Europeans seem fine with. Seems fine to me.
In Canada we have roughly equivalent regulation for many (most?) things and still get delayed feature releases half the time, so at least the EU is getting something out of it.
Just add another cookie banner before each session and you'll be fine, Apple.
Were there any breakthrough for this feature anyway? Or is it more likely that Apple just did what was readily possible?
You could always put environmental audio through Whisper, attain audio trance crypt at 51010 per cent Word error rate, put that transcript through machine translation, and finally TTS. Or you can put audio directly through multimodal LLM for marginal improvements, I guess, but ASR error rate as well as automatic cleanup performance don't seem to have improved significantly after OpenAI Whisper was released.
> attain audio trance crypt at 51010 per cent Word error rate
Was this post the output of such a pipeline, by chance?
I know, I can't tell if it's intentionally sarcastic or unintentionally Olympics-level irony... but it made me laugh!
Apple has clearly made very significant investment in creating a LLM small and efficient enough to do inference locally on an iPhone. This is excellent work and should be applauded.
For the EU, the issue is that Apple intends to recoup this investment through premium-pricing a different product in another category - one that has many low-cost competitors.
Wouldn't this best be resolved by productising the Apple LLM? Earphone API becomes open, as required by EU. However, use of the Apple LLM would be controlled by license. Earbud competitors could either license Apple's LLM, perhaps on a FRAND basis, or they could install their own LLM on an iOS device. Apple may bundle its LLM but must allow users to uninstall Apple's LLM, to free up space for alternatives.
In short, this isn't and shouldn't be about access to IOS for earbuds. EU is right in this. It's about monetising access to the Apple LLM, for which Apple deserves a revenue stream.
> For the EU, the issue is that Apple intends to recoup this investment through premium-pricing a different product in another category - one that has many low-cost competitors.
Let’s be serious for a moment. They sell iPhones with enough margin to recoup that investment.
> Wouldn't this best be resolved by productising the Apple LLM? Earphone API becomes open, as required by EU. However, use of the Apple LLM would be controlled by license. Earbud competitors could either license Apple's LLM, perhaps on a FRAND basis, or they could install their own LLM on an iOS device. Apple may bundle its LLM but must allow users to uninstall Apple's LLM, to free up space for alternatives.
They already tried that with the "Core Technology" fee, and the EU smacked them for it. So doing what you propose is probably a non-starter.
maybe the top car brands can only accept gas from one overpriced gas station, and open the car gas DRM as a license to other stations for a fee.
i know some people like to jump at solving technical problems, but sometimes yall need to chill and read the problem twice to be sure the problem is technical to begin with.
Gasoline is the very definition of a commodity. For now, at least, LLM is very from that.
As far as I know, Apple is unique in delivering inference on such a tiny device. For this they deserve a reward. The question is how. Like the EU, I don't believe Apple-only premium-priced locked-down earbuds is the right way.
the point is about limiting it to a secondary product. didn't you already bought the phone to run the model?
do you even remember the topic you're commenting about? :)
You seem to be claiming that LLM is necessarily integral to iPhone. I am suggesting that need not be the case.
Remember, half of the consideration here is to find a way for Apple to recoup it's investment in LLM. Without creating anti-competitive forces in another market. If you have a different suggestion, or if you think Apple doesn't deserve compensation, make your case.
If an LLM, apple or otherwise, runs on a phone, with audio input and output, then airpods and AliExpress five dollar earbuds should both be able to perform the I/O. I don't see a technical reason the latter is impossible. Indeed, it seems like it should work with the phone mic and speaker and no headset, too.
This isn't rocket science: audio goes into mic => STT engine => translation model => TTS engine => audio comes out of speaker. As a fellow hacker here, you could piece together something like this in a weekend on your computer for fun.
As for your question though: they can charge a subscription for using their LLM if they want, or charge for this specific app/feature of iOS. Or just be like me: whenever I'm about to execute on a business plan, I ask myself: "Is this business plan economically feasible without breaking the law?" And if it is not, then I do not do that plan. So far I haven't been cited for illegal conduct by any unions of dozens of countries, so it appears this tactic works.