• SketchySeaBeast 9 hours ago

    Sites down, but do ants have standups every day just to tell the team what they are doing? Are they forced to attend scrum ceremonies? Do they have a scrum master insisting they set an arbitrary "sprint goal" every two weeks that everyone, including the scrum master, is going to forget about but management will frown at when they realize we didn't work towards? Oh, I'd love to be able to produce like an ant.

    • ktallett 8 hours ago

      Do ant colonies have a scrum master who have no clue how realistic goals are or not but decide to set them anyway? Do ant colonies avoid listening to those with actual knowledge and skillsets that goes against their unrealistic expectations?

      • SketchySeaBeast 8 hours ago

        Yeah, we can't leverage stigmergy because there are actors outside of the code always shifting priorities and applying pressure to system that, in this article's reckoning, should grow in an obvious and natural fashion.

        • robertlagrant 8 hours ago

          The ants know what to do and we don't.

    • patrulek 12 hours ago

      > Why Can't Programmers Be More Like Ants?

      Because ants dont have business units. Most of us, programmers, are slaves to the business and we have to do what they want from us, not what we want or think is optimal to do. And the requirements can change often. How fast those changes would be notified by others in decentralized "ants approach"? Would the business survive with this approach?

      • olau 13 hours ago

        I'm personally attracted to this way of thinking. I did write a post about it many years ago, probably triggered by this article:

        https://ole-laursen.blogspot.com/2016/01/stimergy.html

        Part of the mindset is that when you see a co-worker end up in the wrong place with some new code, you ask yourself, can I do something to our code base to lower the probability of it happening again?

        • MrLeap 16 hours ago

          Probably related to a common desire to be creative and operate with a degree of autonomy.

          • netdevphoenix 14 hours ago

            This pretty much. Ants are basically powerless on their own

          • lingonland 12 hours ago

            Because we are humans and do not work like ants.

            "Why can't an orange be more like apples?" - The title is very stupid clickbait and the reason why people are clicking on it.

          • yamrzou 16 hours ago

            Related:

            Why Can’t Programmers Be More Like Ants? Or a Lesson in Stigmergy (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10866532 - Jan 2016 (28 comments)

            • teddyh 6 hours ago

              “I’d like to study ants,” I said.

              He laughed and laughed, as the window blue was turning darker and darker. Finally he regained his composure, sat upright, and asked me seriously:

              “Why ants?”

              “Ants never fail. Computer networks, I don’t care which one, TYMNET ARPANET INFONET CYBERNET CYPHERNET MICRONET MIDINETTE TELENET they fail regularly, several times a day, somewhere they fail. And the big computers too, you can’t rely on them, sooner or later, they go south and they leave you high and dry, if we’re really going to teleconference on this thing it should never fail. The only thing that never fail are insects.”

              “I said, why ants?”

              “Look at an ant. Talk about microminiaturization of the ant! Even with the best chips from Silicon Gulch do you know how big a computer would have to be to do all the things an ant does? Tons! Tons! And the ant does all that in its little head and when it finds a twig it has one program: ‘If you recognize something which is long, made of wood, and hard, pick it up and put it on top of the ant-hill.’ Now that I call a program. And if the ant can’t do it by itself, another one will come and help, and another, until they do it. And you can step on them it won’t stop the ultimate result, and a crazy Frenchman named Remi Chauvin who is a genius explained to me how he would put twigs in tall glasses to see what the ants will do and he digs cliffs for them, yet they always manage to complete their program. A computer scientist who doesn’t understand ants is a man who doesn’t know what reliability means.”

              “So you would build the computer equivalent of the ant, in hardware?”

              “Right, and it would be so cheap, it would have its own little memory and it would have its own little programs, and it would go around looking for places to apply itself, and it would be disposable, disposable computers by the millions, crawling around and keeping their society going no matter what, so we humans can always find one when we need it and make it do something useful, make it work for us.”

              — The Network Revolution: Confessions of a Computer Scientist, Jacques Vallee (1982) <https://books.google.com/books?id=6f8VqnZaPQwC&pg=PA206>

              • dpflug 6 hours ago
                • BitterCritter an hour ago

                  Computer networks do have packet life which I guess would be a fix for this, but don’t quote me I’m not a network engineer.

              • Vampiero 15 hours ago

                Because that entails giving up your own autonomy?

                • jebarker 10 hours ago

                  No it doesn't. It might involve giving up some of your individuality, but I don't think that's true either.

                • nalinidash 15 hours ago
                  • slt2021 8 hours ago

                    Because humans are not interchangeable economic units.

                    The position that all humans are just interchangeable resources where you can have 80 lbs of human resources or 180 lbs of human resources, like a coal or oil, is ultimately a nihilistic view that strips us all of all humanity.

                    if you, capitalist, want developers as interchangeable economic units, you can use LLMs

                    • jebarker 8 hours ago

                      This isn't what the article proposes. The article is about top-down organization/planning versus individual programmers having the autonomy to figure out the next right thing to work on based on indicators left by prior work, e.g. emails, todo items, issues. If anything I'd say this gives individual programmers more autonomy and influence over the direction the software takes. I think this makes a lot of sense.

                      • SketchySeaBeast 3 hours ago

                        The problem is that the business doesn't trust programmers to build the software in the direction they want. Which is honestly a valid concern, I'd spend way more time than they'd want refactoring and optimizing the code to be cleaner and more extensible, and that gets in the way of piling up the features.

                        • slt2021 8 hours ago

                          We are already living and working like ants in a colony. Human corporation is not much different from ant colony. Ants have queen, humans have CEO. Ants have spec: worker/warrior/support, humans have work specialization: sales/developer/support/etc.

                          the same pattern emerges at the state/country/economy level: taxpayers/military/elites: a human only exists to work, pay taxes and pay bills

                          the ultimate emergent goal is total subjugation of a human economic unit to the needs of a colony

                          • jebarker 8 hours ago

                            This is a very pessimistic view of the world. In return for contributing to the needs of the colony you benefit from all the colony has to offer.

                      • xeckr 13 hours ago

                        Can't access the site. Did one of you get offended at the title and then give the server a tight hug?

                        • nalinidash 13 hours ago

                          Archive link available below.

                        • iLemming 2 hours ago

                          Because ants have the biggest brain–to-body-mass ratio in the animal world. If programmers had brains as big like that, they wouldn't be able to come to this world naturally, consequently programming-motherfucker.com wouldn't have real meaning and that would be a very sad world.

                          • jerojero 2 days ago

                            Perhaps something like this can be used in AI based development teams.

                            After all, as it says, ants are not very intelligent themselves yet manage to do amazing things due to stigmergy.

                            • trhway 13 hours ago

                              more? i think in the mindlessness of my work i'd beat any ant.

                              • chasd00 10 hours ago

                                Me too well except for leaf cutter ants. I just can’t compete with those guys.

                              • Juliate 8 hours ago

                                But would managers accept that most programmers be idle most of the time?

                                Case in point: "Only 30% of the ants do 70% of the work." https://blog.thefabulous.co/idle-time-productivity-lesson-an...