Here's an article [1] from a few years ago from Cornell ergonomics researchers that is still relevant the discusses the pluses and minuses of both sitting and standing desks.
Here is their recommendation:
> Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. The absolute time isn’t critical but about every 20-30 minutes take a posture break and stand and move for a couple of minutes. Simply standing is insufficient. Movement is important to get blood circulation through the muscles. And movement is FREE! Research shows that you don’t need to do vigorous exercise (e.g. jumping jacks) to get the benefits, just walking around is sufficient. So build in a pattern of creating greater movement variety in the workplace (e.g. walk to a printer, water fountain, stand for a meeting, take the stairs, walk around the floor, park a bit further away from the building each day).
That essentially reads to me as "you can't both be focused on computer work and be active enough to be healthy"
Break my concentration EVERY 20-30 minutes to move around for at least 2 minutes? That's at least halving my productivity. It's a total non-starter. It's the sort of advice that everyone pays lip service to, but almost no one is actually able to follow.
That is the optimum frequency — if you just wanna reap in the health benefits it could look like:
0 min: start working
10 min: refactored a few things, get a glas of water, look out of the window
40 min: started working on a particular though problem, somewhat stuck, get up and stretch a little while thinking
60 min: found a good solution to though problem, keep it in your head, goto kitchen get another glas of water
120 min: after an hour of uninterrupted flow the though problem is solved, stand up, get a cup of tea, think about whether it is really adequately solved
etc.
I program myself and found a change of perspective and bodily motion in the right spots can help concentration, not break it, especially in the long run. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you have a variable height desk, you can also alternate between sitting and standing, which can also help as you now have at least two different resting poses with slightly different kinds of strain.
If you work from home you can spread monitors out, so you switch positions while working on a problem without losing focus the same way you switch back and forth on a dual monitor setup. E.g. Have documentation on monitor one at a standup station in one corner of the room, the other monitor with code a few feet away at a desk, email on a laptop in a separate room, etc...
And drinking more coffee helps a lot. You have to get up to make the coffee, then to pee it out. The caffiene in sufficuent quantity makes it hard to sit still. You talk faster so people think you're more productive too.
>found a good solution to though problem
> -keep it in your head,
+write it down
You can keep working with your (aka thinking) head while moving around. Sometimes change or setting can give birth to now ideas or approaches.
Not necessarily. I can sometimes take my problem with me and sometimes that's even the best thing to do, but not always and certainly not every 20 minutes. If you're in a typical office environment it's a complete non-starter as someone at the water cooler will smash your flow into tiny pieces.
Ok, but you don't need to do "every 20 minutes" every 20 minutes. Even trending your life in that direction is better than doing nothing about it. Surely there are times in your life where you find yourself immobile, where you don't really need to be immobile.
It’s not that hard to walk with headphones on and pretend you’re in a call.
> someone at the water cooler will smash your flow into tiny pieces.
Sounds like an argument against rto to me...
Your concentration breaks if you stand up?
Try not to involve your legs in any thought process. With enough training you should be able to take your concentration into the kitchen, the bathroom, the shower, etc.
> Break my concentration EVERY 20-30 minutes to move around for at least 2 minutes? That's at least halving my productivity.
I approximately never need to focus to the level that standing up and pacing a bit would evict state, let alone need to focus like that for for over a half hour at a time.
And I think if I was focusing like that, I'd probably just forget to take a break.
Time for HN = time to move a little. Done.
Heck, just make the rule, "no bullshit web browsing on work computer, only on phone when walking around".
> Break my concentration EVERY 20-30 minutes to move around for at least 2 minutes?
It will be a break just because it needs a conscious effort. But presumably if you build a routine, a habit, it will work by itself. You will be able to continue thinking your deep thoughts, while your body will transpose itself to a treadmill, do some movements there and then transpose itself back.
The tricky part is how to build an automatic routine and how to trigger it every 20 minutes without breaking the concentration.
Maybe an automatic height adjustable table could work?
Many desks have bluetooth these days and someone already built something like that: https://apps.apple.com/de/app/desk-remote-control/id15090377...
Ok, two questions: 1) can it be programmed to regularly change the height without user intervention? 2) what are the user experiences of using it this way?
Some of my best ideas come during little stretch breaks, or while I'm pacing in front of my window waiting for water to boil for tea.
Agreed, and many of mine do when I'm out with the dog or on the toilet. The thing is that those are unscripted. The point that I think the OP was making was that enforced breaks on a schedule will immediately kill any form of concentration or workflow
Absolutely, it's the regimented and very frequent schedule that is the problem. Breaks are necessary, and very useful - but if that frequency is what I have to do to stay healthy with a desk job, then I guess I'll be unhealthy
Basically - movement isn't free
What works for me is that I only have a small glass of water or a coffee at my table. If I want to drink more, I have to get up and walk over to the kitchen. Early in the day this can be about about every 20-30 minutes, later it goes down to maybe 45-60 minutes. Then there are, of course, rest room breaks. So I'd say I get up and move 10-12 times a day in an unforced, natural way -- not always 8 minutes, mind, but it's about progress, not perfection.
> but if that frequency is what I have to do to stay healthy with a desk job, then I guess I'll be unhealthy
That's an interesting lifestyle choice, but don't be shocked if others refuse to follow along.
Only being able to concentrate while sedentary is a habit not a rule of nature.
Like many people throughout time I do much of my best thinking while walking or exercising. To the point that to crack a hard problem is often easiest if I get up and go for a stroll.
This is even easier given that there is seldom only one problem to crack. The combination of switching tasks and moving about, getting the blood pumping, seeing new things, and breaking pattern is an incredibly reliable way to generate good ideas, solutions and approaches.
I have yet to buy one, but a walking pad under my height-adjustable table should allow me to do all those thing at the same spot while I keep working.
I do this by drinking a lot. That way nature takes care of the pauses, I _need_ to get up unless I wear a diaper :D
Some 30 years ago we integrated that by simply putting the laser printer in the opposite corner of the room. Nowadays it's fan or A/C remote, coffee machine, fridge, charger, 2nd mobile phone, etc., placed across the room or office...
20-30 minutes is a bit much, but I think getting up every 45 minutes (get a glass of water/cup of tea, go to the bathroom, look out of the window) is reasonable.
> That's at least halving my productivity.
We're trying to avoid communication with teammates and managers because it breaks flow. All the engineers on my team understand this, generally send me chat messages to kick off a convo, and do not expect instant replies. I offer them the same courtesy. Re-establishing context after an interruption takes a tremendous amount of energy.
Now, admittedly, standing up for a stretch does not break my flow. Neither does walking around my house or doing the dishes. Generally it's talking to another human that'll do it every time. Light exercise should be more than possible to work into your day once it becomes familiar and routine.
it's because when you get up for a walk, or wash the dishes, you use different parts of your brain. it's the same as knitting (i.e for an experienced knitter, not a beginner) while watching TV. talking to another person, especially about work related issues, pushes the previous stuff onto a very short stack, and the stack overflows immediately. often times it's not about trying to get the stuff back in mind as it was before, but having to go through the entire series of steps again to get there.
in my experience, the people complaining about others not communicating enough are insecure extroverts that just can't stand the sound of their own thoughts and just need constant approval from others in the form of attention.
schedule a meeting once a week and we'll catch up. if you're stuck, send me an email and I'll get back to you when it won't interrupt my own work.
There is no need to break your concentration.
Whenever I do not type at the keyboard, but I think about what I should do, I stand up and walk around.
I actually think much better about the problem that I have to solve while walking than when sitting.
Other comments & suggestions aside - remember that the majority of humans employed to sit and work on computers are not programmers.
So you're saying your health is not your number 1 priority? Interesting that you think everyone else is paying lip service to this basic way to take care of your body.
Use a treadmill.
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Sounds complicated and distracting. Just do what a lot of us do: Sit and shake one of your legs frantically and shift position every 5-10 minutes instead. You'll never sit completely still and your blood is always flowing. Helps to think as well.
Obviously you should still walk and stretch every now and then, but no need to approach it like a Pomodoro timer of distraction.
Have not seen any scientific backing for this Cornell recommendation 20m sit duration.
Most relevant study I have found is that sitting harm (average sedentary bout lenght & all cause mortality) actually begins at ~10-11m, and increases from that point. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28892811/
"A marked increase in mortality risk was observed at ~10 min/bout; suggestive of a threshold effect."
Sitting for 20 minutes is about all I can bear. A little voice in my head says to get up and move after that. I don’t mix in standing; I just make an excuse to go to the printer. I’ll stop feeling guilty because of it.
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Study argues that movement is better than a static position (standing or sitting). Shocker.
What they're obviously missing is that when you're at a standing desk, the friction to engaging in some kind of movement is drastically decreased (unless you're talking about spinning).
While I stand at my desk, I frequently find myself pacing, jogging in place, stretching, etc. I don't have to first GET UP OUT OF A CHAIR.
They're not missing anything. Read the article instead of just the comments and you'll realize that all of this has been taken into account in the final results.
I stand, often on one leg with the other one laid on the desk with bent knee. Like a flamingo.
I also take care to move constantly, flexing hips, squatting, twisting spine.
It's desk yoga.
Tried jogging in place when reading this. Desk would shake if I tried to use it and couldn't control peripherals. Even reading content was hard.
I use voice-only chats to move around the room with my bluetooth headset
Also who spends the entire day standing at a standing desk? I think that's pretty rare.
Came here to say exactly this. I've noticed that when I'm standing at my desk, I'm much more likely to start walking around the room, go look out the window, or go pet the cat while thinking something through.
The whole thing is bad. We're chimpanzees chained to desks and they're trying to figure out if it's the chair that's killing us.
Humans are nothing like chimpanzees physiologically. Homo sapiens has a semi-aquatic mammal build.
Perhaps we should transition to in-office swimming pools with floating desks
Comedy Central landed on that solution six years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwQRXSvgm5o
I fear that it wouldn't work well in a British office due to the toaster limitation.
It's all about the toaster floating in the pool.
The Floaster (TM) - New!... from Blammo!
If you can't work in home office the company workspace would look like in matrix :D .
Who classifies us as such, because Wikipedia does not list us as semi-aquatic mammals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Semiaquatic_mammals
Nor it lists us in the semi-aquatic category:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiaquatic
> Humans are nothing like chimpanzees physiologically.
I think the non-humans animals that are most like us physiologically are: chimps, bonobos and orangutans.
Saying that we are "nothing like chimps" is thus plain wrong.
You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. (Dear GP, congrats on eliciting the quintessential HN comment response).
"semi-aquatic mammal build"
That's one way to insult someone as a stranded whale.
The aquatic ape hypothesis is pseudoscience. Humans are adapted for long distance running and throwing.
So we need long distance running desks and mouse pointers that move with giant throwing motions.
Dual-classing as a desk-like build, however, you lose your vitality buffs.
It's the only way to get through phase 3 or the uber boss fight.
I am not a desk.
Not with that attitude.
> Humans are nothing like chimpanzees physiologically. Homo sapiens has a semi-aquatic mammal build.
Looks at chimp. Looks at whale. Looks at dolphin. Looks at human.
Scratches head like a confused ape.
Whales and dolphins are not "semi-aquatic". Think more beaver and polar bear.
Looks at polar bear. Looks at beaver. Continues scratching head.
so we should work from a yakuzi!
now working in home office I'm barely sitting for longer than half an hour except for meetings. even back in the gulag office i was walking around all the time.
On the bright side, my standing desk is great as an adjustable desk.
It's nice to be able to get the height just right.
I made a standing desk and pulled a bar chair in to sit or prop myself on as occasion suggested
I had the same revelation with my standing desk. It’s the first desk I’ve ever had that is the proper height for me.
I have a bad tailbone/lower back and the ability to rotate between sitting, reclining, and standing is important or I can't work.
It’s nice to have that flexibility
There you have it, the science is settled: work is bad for you.
The sad thing is that we could reduce the work week to three or four days and be perfectly fine. Yet we're not doing it.
We would be fine but rich people's investments would not grow as much or as fast
Absolutely. I think shorter work weeks not only support mental and physical health but actually boost productivity!
And they would very likely be better for the environment.
My idea to solve all this would be to change how computing is done.
We don't talk about radical disruptive ideas enough these days.
What if we don't have to interact with computers from a stationary position at all? VR headsets are one direction that might help with this, but in my view there is another way. Decouple peripherals and computing units fully. You'd carry around with you a battery unit that will charge display and input units, and it wouldn't be carrying but maybe put on a strap on your arm, shoulder, back,etc.. (very lightweight). I wish I could draw this out and show you, but you would be able to sit, move around, even run. You can hold a display unit, but you can also have cheap display units on walls all over the office, house,etc.. and you'd attach sensors to the back of your arm that would sense finger movements for typing and controlling the mouse and view port.
Essentially, "monitors" would not be tied to one device, but whatever device is nearest to them, wirelessly. and 10-12" mobile monitors (like tablets but just the display,battery and wireless receiver board) that work in the same way would also be a thing. the actual computers would be in a static location.
Imagine just sitting at a desk, or walking up to a wall, running on a treadmill, or taking a walk outside and you can still do the same exact task, just as if you were sitting down in front of a laptop.
If it were that simple, someone would have done it, I get that. But we need to talk about ideas like this (I'm sure there are better ones).
I see the big issues as:
1. Input accuracy, speed, and fatigue. Stick your keyboard to a wall and try standing next to it typing for an hour. Even if somehow gestures/sign-language are viable, your arms will get tired, and only a few people will power through the pain with the excuse that it's a form of exercise.
2. Motion sickness and physical safety. We make dedicated workspaces because we need to control external factors and have definite positions for things. A floating "window" isn't that different from an LCD on a pivoting arm, especially if you prefer to change the hat's on it rather than frequently relocate it.
3. We don't multitask nearly as well as we think we do.
1) You'll move your fingers just as if you were typing on a keyboard, and the sensors will give you feedback when you "type", your arm can be in any position, so long as you move your fingers like you were typing on a keyboard it would work. There won't be actual keyboards. accuracy and speed would ideally be similar to a bluetooth keyboard.
2) Dedicated workspaces are fine, you're just not tied to one concept of a workspace. A park bench can be a dedicated work space, so can standing in front of walls, or a seat at a coffee shop. the ergonomics can be adapted accordingly.
3) Multi-tasking is irrelevant here, if I'm just watching a video for example, I can sit on a sofa, get up and walk around after a bit, go to the kitchen and make some food, go to my office and sit on an office chair,etc.. all the while I would be watching the movie. My posture and location is not tied down to the compute device, that would be the ideal goal.
We wouldn't need "smart" devices all that much with this approach either, "things" would interface with my I/O peripherals instead of having their own that requires my interaction. E.g.: imagine getting groceries and you'd navigate the isles and get information about products without a single thing in the store changing, you just have your peripherals interact with the environment better.
I've made basically a keytar - just a flat board hanging down like a guitar, with a guitar strap for it, and then I mounted a (wireless) keyboard and trackpad to it (flat), so I can stand and type/mouse with my arms and hands hanging down. There's still fatigue, but there's not the same need for gorilla arms. So I don't see 1 as insurmountable.
Stephen Wolfram has a walking desk so he can use his laptop while out walking: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
So ... a cellphone plus random screens available to cast to plus a Bluetooth keyboard small enough to wear on your arm.
more like a hand movement sensor than a keyboard but yeah. it would also act as a mouse if you pinch your index finger and thumb on either hand.
One other important piece you're missing is that the displays are "cellphone" aren't permanently paired. and the "cellphone" could be a computing device of any size. your displays would interface with the larger computer at stores or smaller computers when you go about your day in public (street lamps, directions, information, subway,etc..). instead of a smart thermostat with a touch screen for example, you'd just bring your display near a wall (and/or actual thermostat) and interface with it. flying? just bring up your lightweight display and have it interface with the plane's computer for entertainment and information. So, instead of "cellphone" think, "thin client" but with modern wireless+battery tech.
Lol did you just invent a terminal from the 1970s, but a cell phone?
Sounds like the hand terminals from The Expanse which you can flick onto any nearby display.
Which I dearly would like to see, but the protocol and security implications make my head hurt.
Apple doesn't have the "flick" UI for it, but you can screen share a Mac to Apple TV, so I'm able to use my TV as a monitor with no trouble. The security boundary is that all devices need to be logged into the same wifi, maybe also iCloud.
Right but that's the point, isn't it? If you have a single manufacturer with complete control of the devices and software on both ends and you own the devices and have a single trusted network or authentication service it can work (but still not exactly easy to implement). But that's not the hypothetical in question - for that to be a reality, you have to have it work pretty much anywhere, on any network (or a way to negotiate an adhoc private network) and on virtually any third party IO hardware.
And that's before you get to the possibility of the gym treadmill screen or coffee shop keyboard or whatever being a hostile device. Which they would easily be if people were going to use the system for something of high value as opposed to casting YouTube to the treadmill screen. Which may be a little bit of a data leak opportunity as it stands, but it's not quite a screencast of your banking account, complete with key log.
My point is that the underlying technology is there, in a way that's accessible to users, so it's just a matter of use case and implementation and the market for such technology. If all you think about is the reasons it won't work, then you'll never try. Some great companies have come from people that didn't know they shouldn't try.
As far as technology though, Airplay is what macOS uses to project the video, and there are open source implementations out there that you could run on a raspberry pi. As far as wanting it to work everywhere, if Apple supported Chromecast it would probably work more places, since Google licenses that technology so it's already on a lot of TVs and projectors.
I'm not imagining using this in very many places other than my home and any office locations where I have wifi, but there are standards like wifi-direct where you wouldn't even need that.
I'm only transmitting video, the keyboard/mouse is connected to my device via Bluetooth, so the worst a malicious device could do is record video that I'm transmitting, which, if I don't want people to see the video I'm transmitting, I should not transmit it in the first place.
> I don't want people to see the video I'm transmitting, I should not transmit it in the first place.
Lol, you tell me I'm looking for reasons it won't work (when I'm the one saying how cool it would be, just incredibly hard to do) and you're the one limiting the concept to a toy home office setup. Good one.
Dare to dream outside of your daily experience.
Oh you're a dreamer! Should have just told me you weren't going to do any work, contribute anything useful or finish anything.
Apple started in a toy home office aka garage. I'm sure they won't mind the company.
sure, but those are alot of words to be entirely unoriginal.
It sounded like satire about dumb tech bros to me.
We reinvent thin clients every few years; aren't we due for the latest take on it?
well, think of thin clients but much much thinner, like anorexic clients :) , also think of peripherals, display and audio i/o units being discrete thin clients on their own that network with each other and various compute units.
cell phones have embedded compute units in them and 70's terminals were neither wireless nor lightweight.
> The researchers found no association between time spent standing and the risk of cardiovascular disease, suggesting standing desks and similar work postures might not be enough to stave off the health problems associated with sitting around.
I always assumed it was also probably pretty good for my back and neck - I'd love to see a study on that.
The title is a bit misleading, "standing desks don't improve risks of cardiovascular disease" would have been better. I would wager it did nothing for my chances of getting cancer, skin moles, or being hit by a car either, yet that doesn't mean they are "as bad as sitting"
I personally switched only for my posture, and it mostly fixed my issues with neck and back. I never thought it had any other benefits than that. Maybe burn a marginal few calories? So I wouldn't say they're as bad as sitting. At least for me, they're better
Obesity is a major risk factor for both cardiovascular disease and cancer. They are highly correlated.
I remember reading something that your baseline consumption when standing is 140 calories/h vs 120 when seating. Definitely too marginal to have any sort of impact on obesity.
If those numbers are accurate then it would equate to a difference of about 2lb (1kg) of fat per year. That's a pretty typical rate of weight gain for many adults.
My math is a bit different. Assuming a 20 Cal/hr difference, a 40 hr working week, 52 weeks/year, 7700 Cal per kg of weight loss:
20*40*52/7700=5.4 kg/year
Surprisingly large. Did I mess something up?
Nit: 1 Calorie (capital C) == 1000 calories (lowercase c) == 1 kcal. 1 kCal == 1,000,000 calories, which probably isn't what you meant.
Oh yeah, that old chestnut. Thanks for pointing out. Fixed.
The body is pretty good at regulating the amount of energy we spend. Any increase at your desk is likely to be offset sometime else in your day.
Assuming that you would not eat the difference because you are more hungry.
> I personally switched only for my posture, and it mostly fixed my issues with neck and back
You should invest in good chair and desk.
I have a belief that a lot of (but certainly not all) back pain is caused by weak back muscles. Back muscles support the spine and hold it straight against the weight of the abdomen. Like all muscles, they atrophy if you don't exercise them. The very best way to exercise them is to spend most of your day standing, walking, and a good part of it running. Which is what evolution designed our bodies to do.
I had a standing desk at work and while I only used it for a couple hours a day, it helped GREATLY in erasing my chronic back pain.
The fact that they studied standing desks in particular is a bit odd, but it fits into the growing body of evidence showing that activity and fitness don't have nearly as big an impact on cardiovascular disease as diet does.
For something between standing and sitting, you could use a stool as I do. I have a bad back and I find it to be better than any chair I've used so far, though I've only tried a few. You still get a slight bit of elevated heart rate and caloric expenditure to keep your body firm and in good posture so I'd say it's better than sitting and more relaxing than standing. You also don't have to remind yourself to get up and move every once in a while because if you're practicing good posture, you won't be too comfortable.
Yeah moving to standing desk basically got rid of lower back pain. I didn't do it for the heart.
'The best posture is the next posture,' as they say.
Working on this to incorporate regular movement into focused work: https://www.movably.com/.
It's all about keeping things moving and changing
It's best to do 10 squats every 45 minutes regardless of sitting or standing.
I wonder if after the standing desk fad now we'll have a squatting desk fad.
I want the return of the yoga workstation. Once again Doug was ahead of his time.
Maybe we'll go back to kneeling chairs.
I have worked as dev since age of 18, I am now 42. Never had any health problems. I do some irregular sports but not very much. I don’t pay much attention to ergonomics, I just simply change my sitting position often and also take short walks. I do use standing desk sometimes but not for whole day, just for short periods.
Congratulations, you're a sensible human being who has figured out that listening to your body and intuition works much better than all these "optimal" solutions everyone is chasing after. I've suspected for a long time that much of ergonomics is just snake oil and hardly based on any evidence at all. If sitting upright or in some specific allegedly ergonomic position is making me feel tense and wears me out, how is that helpful? I prefer to go with what millions of years of evolution have coded in me. Fortunately I don't have a desk job anymore so it's not of much concern to me.
The article is a bit shortsighted as it seems to only measure the benefits of standing through cardiovascular risk outcomes. As someone with recent lower back issues - a musculoskeletal issue - I can tell you I would prefer to stand for most of the day.
It's not being short-sighted, it's reporting on a study that measured specific cleanly measurable things. The goal isn't to be comprehensive, it's to precisely measure one thing.
The standing desk solved by back pain issues. This is something the study didn't look into. They looked only for cardiovascular diseases. The ladder once are probably mainly caused by nutrition and sitting or standing won't do much difference.
P.S.: Walking Desks are even better.
I find the healthiest thing to do is to work remote and move around your house doing errands while occasionally returning to your computer to type some thoughts on your mind and then return back to errands.
"work" remote:)
I know you're just messing around, but honestly I find I'm more work-productive doing this. The human mind is mobile and performs much better when you have some variety, movement, occasional relaxation. Obviously some people take advantage and don't really work, but I find that working 90-95% capacity and 5% walk around the house, BS with my wife, do some small chores etc. is a lot more productive than trying to work 100% and ending up stressed, overfocused, and burnt out.
Everybody knows “real” work is having useless catch up and alignment meetings and chatting away for hours in the office.
I have a standing desk, but probably put in that mode maybe 5% of the time. The biggest improvement for me was getting an excellent chair. Due to preexisting health issues, I have very bad lower back pain. Can't really sleep for long or do much involving leaning over without pain. However, despite all the memes about extravagance, the Aeron lets me sit for hours without any issues. (standard chairs not so much)
I don't stand at my standing desk. I fidget more, I move more, I stretch more. When I'm in the office and seeing people at their standing desk, I don't see a single person who is just statically standing still all day.
I have an adjustable standing desk and I keep switching between standing and sitting. Then I try to find reasons to walk around to think, make tea, coffee (use a small cup so I have to get up more often).
I was debating getting a treadmill of some sort but I think I am doing ok for now as I don’t stand much in one place anyway.
Standing all the time is bad, sitting all the time is bad.
The best thing is to switch positions every now and then, put your standing desk in sitting mode and vice versa.
If you're a proper hacker, automate it. Make your desk swap stances every 30 minutes whether you like it or not :D
I read another comment recommending an underdesk stationary bike instead, it'll help you move more so you're not trading one sedentary activity for another.
Well if we look at it as "standing all day" vs "sitting all day" maybe yeah doesn't make much difference.
So having an option to switch position between sitting and standing during the day, like work standing for an hour then work sitting for next one is definetly still better than one or the other.
Also while I work standing I do see I move much more like moving weight from one side to the other where while sitting I can just stay in one position for much longer.
We have been working on a better solution to this the last few years and have a good answer if extended desk work focus is integral to your work.
The fundamental conflict is one of movement vs. focus (and health vs. career sadly), and we have found a way to introduce significant posture changes while doing work. https://www.movably.com/
We, also unlike basically every other chair company sadly, also put this to an independent research group. Our protocol was a simple sit-stand transition every 3 minutes, and the seems to be the first study to show a chair preventing pain without interrupting productivity. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
Lying down is best. Comfy, relaxing, best for brain
Standing at a desk makes incidental movement possible, especially for someone like me who can't sit still much less stand still. I pace, use my pull-up bar, and use my dip bars when I'm working at my stand-up desk. I never did those things when forced to sit down even in my own home.
If we’re not supposed to sit more than 10 hours a day, and not supposed to stand more than 2 hours then how are we supposed to spend the other 4 hours when we’re not sleeping?
I can’t imagine being on a treadmill or exercise bike for than length of time
Running, walking, climbing, pushing, pulling, carrying and shagging.
Humans are probably meant to hunt, forage, or socialize for most of the day.
totally agree - the article seems to imply that you shouldn't be sitting or standing while doing that for at least 4 hours
You usually move around while doing those activities.
Moving?
Gluteus medius tendonitis. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/no-joke-your-desk-job-pro...
I had that (from running). Easily fixed by doing a few weeks of gym work.
I really encourage everyone to find a physical activity they enjoy doing and do it almost every day. One of the best investments you can ever do for yourself. A standing desk just isn't enough on its own.
I tought this is common knowledge. Sitting all day - bad. Standing all day, also bad. Like, first docummented RSI were people standing at their stations in manufacturing, right?
The real blessing of standing desks is finally making your desk properly fit your body proportions while you're sitting. And treadmill walking during meetings.
I was always told that the best position is always the next position.
It's like the Monty Hall problem, switching is always the better solution.
It’s like it always comes back to the same old rule. Everything in moderation. A bit of standing, sitting and moving around is good.
Earlier discussion:
Standing desk with threadmill was/is a winner for me. May not be a fit for everyone but I feel like the constant walking functions as a fidget toy for me. Huge boost in productivity, creativity and I’m getting my steps in. Good amount of water and electrolytes are also part of it.
Even cheaper and I like it a lot : a balance board [0].
It allows me to have my muscle to work even when I’m standing still. It’s in fact pretty pleasant.
I also tried roller skates (detachable [1]) and it’s also pretty nice. More stable than the balance board but your legs are still more free than just standing.
[0] I use this one : https://www.decathlon.fr/p/planche-d-equilibre-fitness-bois/...
Maybe we need to, I dunno, rethink the way we work in general. Stop chasing silver bullets and admit that movement is medicine. Reading articles like this reminds me of the people I've watched exhaust every possible option for weight loss save for mindful eating and exercise.
Butts in seats is a very poor way to get productivity. It is, however, management enforced. Management only pretends to care about productivity. Until managerial ideology shifts we'll never bother.
I think countries beyond the US have a much better prospect of doing this.
Quite the opposite. The US has the strongest startup culture in the world; new companies with new founders are definitionally the places where new concepts are first implemented and tried.
People need to stop expecting their employer to solve this problem, because they won't. They're not responsible for making you exercise.
The most efficient way to incorporate exercise into your day is to make it part of your commute. Walking, biking, taking the train etc. - different modes are viable for different locations.
If you choose a job where this is not possible, you're just going to have to make it up some other way - two hours per week in a gym goes farther than most people think if you spend that time well.
In many cases at least one of these options is available to people but instead of taking it they whine that the job itself is too sedentary. I don't have a lot of sympathy, there are far worse jobs for the body than sitting in a chair (or standing stationary, your choice!) all day.
If truly none of these options are available to you in your current job - find a new one if you value your health. So many people have chosen a job for the money or prestige and just ignored this element completely. Those are unhappy people on account of their own choice.
This is not about exercise. Extended periods of inactivity are bad for your health, even if you are physically active. If the nature of your job is sedentary, you should interrupt the inactivity often enough. This is something all employers should accommodate. Either voluntarily, due to market pressure, or by regulation if more reasonable approaches fail.
Every employer I've ever had, even doing factory and warehouse work, has split the day into circa-2-hour blocks, with a morning break, a lunch break and an afternoon break.
When folks are working a production line the bosses have to coordinate it - but in an office there's more flexibility. And if someone in an office wants to skip their breaks to leave early, or have a larger number of shorter breaks, they generally have that freedom.
Is this not the case everywhere?
Europe might be better but the eastern hemisphere (India, China, Japan) is worse.
Completely agree with you. However, what does this mean for a software engineer or anyone who must be in front of a computer for extended periods of time?
I’ve moved to biking everywhere and daily walks with the dogs, but still have 8 hours where I’m mostly sedentary
I've developed two habits that work well for me:
1. Taking walks during the day. I have figured out a lot of tricky design and even debugging questions by taking a walk. And even if I don't think about programming directly, it still clears my head. Splitting my day up with an hour (or longer) walk leaves me more effective than spending the same time in front of my computer. I usually work remotely, so often this involves walking to a cafe, doing some work there and walking back.
2. Taking walking meetings. I've found this works well for 1:1s, and it works reasonably well for large calls where I don't need to participate much. There are lots of meetings where it's too awkward or doesn't work at all, but converting even a small fraction of my meetings to walking meetings is a real improvement.
Of course, both of these assume a flexible culture where this does not make me look like a slacker and where I can take meetings in different ways. But I figure that's a minimum for having a healthy and productive work environment regardless!
The videocall obsession has got to stop for #2 to work. It used to be much easier to do walking meetings and walking calls, now every external call has to be on video and even internal calls there are plenty of people that subtly guilt you or assume you're not actually working if you have video off.
I'm about to start leaving video on with the phone in my pocket as I walk.
Yeah, I've been lucky to work on teams where people are pretty flexible about having video on or off.
And for 1:1s walking meetings can work well in person too :)
I saw this comment by the user smeej recently on Ask HN about your best purchases of 2024 [0]:
> Semi-recumbent stationary bike that fits under my standing desk.
> I've never been coordinated enough to get the hang of walking on the treadmill and typing, but pedaling slowly all day I can do! I've lost 45 lbs so far this year, and adding up the calorie estimate for each day (I've been tracking) and dividing by the 3500 calories people say are in a pound, about 20 of them have been from the bike! (The rest have been from hard work with a dietitian who helped me solve some longstanding issues, but that was more expensive.)
My 2c if helpful: the solution was to question deeper assumptions.
Why are you at a desk? Because you have to work 8 hours.
Why? Because your job requires it.
Why do you have that job? Because you need income to live.
Is a job the only way to have income to live? (See: FI).
Ultimately the root cause is not being in control of your time. It takes time, but once solved the downstream problems solve themselves. You can work (exert effort on goals you care about) in a way that prioritizes your health.
Try to get movement in whenever possible. Take the stairs, pace around during calls (when you do not share an office). Get up and stretch between "work segments". And my favorite new tool: A skipping rope that I use whenever I feel too tired/ like my concentration is breaking / I do not want to do, what I currently have to do. (Mind you, there is a storage room big enough next to my office room that is right above the underground garage, so I will not disturb my colleagues.). Before that, I used to climb the stairs to the top of my office building (five floors) and down to "unfog" my mind and get some energy back.
I once got a bright idea to climb up the stairs to the 13th floor where our office was located. Once I got there, I found that doors can only be opened from the inside, so I climbed 13 floors down and took an elevator up again like a good little sheep.
I change positions throughout the day (Apple Watch is good for reminding to move)
But also for me , if I’m at home, I take my dog for walks during the day and just make up the time later if needed. It breaks things up.
Or if I’m in the office I go for thinking walks to plan out what I’m doing
I think it's less about deliberate tricks and more about developing habits that ensure some low intensity activity throughout the day. Most things you do on a computer don't actually require being in front of the computer all the time. There are always moments when you are waiting for something to happen or thinking about something instead of actually doing it. You can use those moments to snap out of the torpor, even if just for a few seconds.
I was not in the same industry, but I once had a remote job that kept me tethered to my desk because I was constantly responding to phone calls. After about two months of that, I ended up purchasing a cheap walking pad (think slow treadmill with no side rails that only goes at walking pace) from Amazon for about $120USD. This was not a perfect solution, any stretch, it provided movement instead of just standing in place.
What I mean by "rethink the way we work" is that jobs like yours (and you may not agree with this) need to be broken up into smaller chunks through the day. So, you work for 2 hours, do something else for 2 hours, work a little more for 2 hours, and so on.
I work beside a lot of programmers and CAD designers in my industry and, in fact, am trying to move over to their side of the team (currently I am the guy who builds, tests and repairs the machines they create). One thing I feel is universally true is that, while you may be sitting at your desk for 8 hours, you are really only doing any actual work for about half the time, possibly less.
Here me out; sitting in front of a computer is tough on both the brain and body. When you are tethered to the desk and 90% of your job is cerebral, to an outsider that looks like a pretty easy day, but we know it's not. Those stress hormones build up fast and because you can't get up to work them off or give them some physical purpose, you sit tensed, bouncing a leg, shoulders up to the ears, etc etc. Your body suffers and really, the output for the day could have probably been done with only 4 hours of actual computer time, instead of 8. So, open up the opportunity for our programmers to move around by doing some other stuff. If no work tasks can be assigned, the programmer should just get those 2 on/2 off times to do what they think is best, because, as far as the employer is concerned, if the output each day remains the same, who cares? Nothing changes for them and you get to stop being a pressure cooker of cortisol.
Understandably, my idea needs some massaging, so don't take any of this as 'this is the way it must be to work.' Consider it a work in progress and your suggestions are welcome.
I usually go out for a cigarette break a few times during the day, keeps me moving.
I tend to pop by the pub for a quick one at 11:30am when they open.
Next fad: treadmill desks.
I actually tried doing that when I was stuck in isolation during COVID. Even when you go at low speeds, the constant movement messes with both your mouse movements and your typing. If you're aiming for that route, I would recommend an underdesk cycle you can use while sitting down instead.
The Torvalds Zombie Shuffling Desk does seem like it could be a hit.
You don't actually stand all day. You rotate so you aren't sitting or standing too much.
Do people really not understand that?
This study showed alternating sit-stand more often completely prevented pain during an extended work period in 100% of participants, compared to standing and a high end ergonomic chair: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
I have a wobble board at my standing desk; keeps me moving constantly without distracting me.
Walking desk it is!
My last company a number of people had treadmills. The walker always looked like they were headed toward me on calls. Group Zooms became hilariously ominous as more people marched toward me in unison.
Can people really type quickly and accurately on a treadmill at their desk? I tried that last year, and saw the error rate in my documents explode.
Some data points by @gwern and Jeremy Howard (@jph00):
That's exactly what I did. I got a small treadmill, but I walked 8hrs on my first day and hurt my knee. Everything in moderation.
Fun fact: both Linus and Wolfram have walking desks!
Wolfram said he didn't exercise much before age 40, but his wife convinced him to, and he's now resolved to not walk less than 10000 steps per day. He does his first few meetings of the day "in motion" whether walking or on a treadmill.
I have a walking pad under my desk and do at least a few miles every day. It’s great.
They're not as expensive or annoying to deal with as I thought, either, assuming you already have a standing desk with a motor.
Stephen Wolfram was always correct.
Especially according to Stephen Wolfram!
The Uber FIGJAM (F*#% I’m Good, Just Ask Me)
I’ve been using a standing desk for the last decade, or so. I seldom sit down, to work. I no longer keep an office chair around (I’m retired, but actually spend more time coding, than I ever did, when working).
Standing is still not as comfortable as sitting, but I got used to it.
As I work, I move around a lot. Just happens naturally.
If I am on a video call, I don’t move around much, and I really feel the difference. I have friends that work remote, and are basically on video calls, all day. I couldn’t stand that.
I have an adjustable desk (hand-cranked), but never adjust it.
I have heard that’s the pattern with these $5,000 “smart” electric desks. People go up and down for a month, then settle on a constant height (not always standing), and there it stays; forever.
I think it is obvious that staying stationary all day (standing vs. sitting) will be bad for cardiovascular health. I also don't think anyone believed standing would suddenly make working for 8+ hours a day in front of a computer screen healthy.
However, with a standing desk and split keyboard (apple trackpad in the middle), I personally feel I can work with some semblance of decent posture. When I work sitting down, especially for long periods of time, my posture degrades (tech neck, etc.) When standing up with a split keyboard, at least my posture is linear and my shoulders are back. From the study, apparently the improved posture benefits do not carry over to cardiovascular health benefits, but I would guess it is still beneficial. Very rarely in the office do I see people sitting with good posture (It is possible, but takes more conscience effort), but I will often see people standing with good "upright" posture.
tldr: Article mentions nothing about posture improvements. That is what I always thought improved the most moving from sitting to standing desks.
What I do is design everything while I’m up and about and on paper/whiteboard and then sit down just to code it out, it’s so much better, way better architectural outcomes when you start with sunshine and fresh air.
I tried stand-sit style for the past 2-3 years I guess, it indeed cured my back and hip pain, while I have to admit, it lowers your productivity when sitting, so a combine should be the final answer.
Discussion (38 points, 25 days ago, 19 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41862258
One mile an hour: https://youtu.be/jYUZAF3ePFE?t=86
... for cardiovascular disease.
The benefits of standing, is for neck and back posture, I think most people agree.
Standing all day sucks, it's no secret, anyone who works retail will tell you that.
I thought this was commmon knowledge. We neither want to sit for too long or stand for too long. I've always been told this since i was a child.
Because standing or sitting all day are both sedentary. Standing is closer to sitting than any kind of actual physical activity or movement.
I move when I'm standing. I stretch my calves, my feet, my back... All of that pretty frequently. I move my legs, I shake my arms loose...
Standing still might be about as bad as sitting but a standing desk has completely transformed how much movement I get whilst on the desk, allowing me to generally avoid breaks to stretch and move as those things happen naturally.
Go to the loo, coffee machine/water cooler, talk to someone in another part of the business, lunch, etc?
Standing all day will not help your VO2 max. You need to get your heart rate up.
Thankfully, working on your V02 max doesn't take all day!
So, sort of motivated by reading that many other people seem to experiment with standing desks, I installed a standing terminal at home. Used it sporadically (so only an hour at a time or so) for a few months. Then, my right foot developed a very painful problem. Dragged that with me the whole winter. When I went to the doctor, they didn't find (suprise!) any cuases. Took me 8 months to recover my right foot totally. Lessons learned: Forget about the new trendy alternative craze, its likely just bullshit.
We are working on this and did a related study which included a group of participants more sensitive than average to standing and sure enough- more frequent posture changes from standing eliminated discomfort in 100% of participants. If curious: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
Yeah, staying static all the time isn’t ideal. I decided to get an under-desk treadmill a few years ago, and after a bit of adjustment, it’s definitely manageable. Walking for 4 hours during the workday means 4 hours less spent sitting or standing still. The book Death by Sitting by Eric Soehngen also points out that simply standing doesn’t solve the issue, as it’s still a static posture.
“ standing for long periods of time might not be much better than sitting after all”
Well duh, if you trade one sedentary all-day posture for another sedentary all-day posture it’s not likely to be of much benefit.
The point of standing desks is to vary posture during the day and being able to choose to stand or sit while continuing to work gives you one more way to achieve this. Mix with breaks and walks and it’s starting to look better than sitting on your ass all day anyway.
I try to stand for calls/remote meetings, I have a couple every day and it adds up to about 1h of standing / shifting my weight around and helps me stay focused. But not overdoing it is key - on days where I have more than a couple of meetings I’ll totally be sitting for some of them.
Not requiring camera on during calls proved very good for my health. During calls I get up and walk around the house. Bluetooth works quite well if you don't go too far. As a bonus I keep better concentration in the call than just sitting in front of the screens which are a source of distraction.
I'm sure this is very variable person-to-person. I stand 98% of the time, not for any theoretical health reason, but because I find it far more comfortable. I have terrible posture when sitting and made little progress in trying to correct it. Switching to standing all-but eliminated my lower back pain and most of my neck pain.
The only time I sit these days is if I'm extremely tired for some reason. I have been doing this for more than 10 years now though, and it took a while until it became easy.
Exactly. I mostly sit. When I move the desk to a standing position it lets me walk around a bit while working. Press compile and then walk a bit back while thinking. It is a wonderful tool.
Static standing all day is horrible, that isn't news.
Yes, this, I stand during meetings and sit while working. It helps a ton.
Surely the point is (has always been?) about movement? Doing one thing all day = bad; doing variable things which involve movement between and around them = better. Being actually active = good.
No?
I feel great if I stand early morning, then just before lunch and finally late afternoon yeh, much like no-sciencealert.com ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This study's a reminder that it’s all about movement, not just the position we're in
