• andyjohnson0 15 hours ago

    > Doing so would not only enrich affluent lawyers but damage the brand of WordPress worldwide, resulting in regular folks and small businesses looking for the exits.

    I seriously doubt this. Even the majority of tech people are unaware of this dispute. And most businesses are too busy to care.

    • grujicd 3 hours ago

      This reddit user claims he lost $40k contract due to increased platform risk as perceived by his customer. This is reaching mainstream media (or at least mainstream technical media), and decision-makers will notice it sooner or later. Especially while they're performing due diligence before signing a significant contract.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/1g3rwwm/you_aske...

      • p1necone 15 hours ago

        > Even the majority of tech people are unaware of this dispute. And most businesses are too busy to care.

        I still don't understand what the hell is going on and I see posts about it on HN every couple days. Who is the original wordpress and who is the fork. Is there a clear "bad guy" in this?

        • throwup238 15 hours ago

          > Is there a clear "bad guy" in this?

          It’s more like dumb and dumber than good vs bad.

          • FireBeyond 15 hours ago

            I'm at a loss - what exactly has WP Engine done that is "dumb"? As far as I can see, it's an umbrella for "will not cave to Matt's every wish".

            • jamedjo an hour ago

              Misuse the trademarks licensed to one of their competitors while relying on that competitor to provide them infrastructure for software updates and provide product improvements.

              Adjusting their product names sounds like a small change they could have made to avoid antagonising a close partner.

              Running their own plug-in mirror infrastructure is something companies often do to reduce the risk from relying on a third party.

              Similarly having some stake in the development of WordPress reduces risk of them being shut out if there is a license change that necessitates a fork.

              Less about caving in on wishes as more that it's risky to choose both to rely on a third party and wind them up at the same time.

              • belorn 14 hours ago

                As a hosting provider, getting into a conflict with people who you have a software and service dependency on could be described as non-recommendable, especially if there is no formal contract involve. There are a few historical examples of companies being based on accessing free apis of youtube/social networks and then having their access removed suddenly, killing the company over night. Initiating lawsuits in response to a trademark dispute (a dispute that had yet to become a lawsuit) managed to escalate things fairly fast.

                • atonse 15 hours ago

                  I’m honestly not sure what they’ve done wrong (or illegally). But it seems like Mullenweg has alienated a lot of people by what seems to be very erratic behavior.

                  I am curious to see what many WP employees think of all this.

                  • anonymoushn 15 hours ago

                    Mullenweg is the CEO of Automattic. WP Engine is the other party in the current drama.

                  • soared 15 hours ago

                    I believe the short of it is, create a massive business built on Wordpress but contribute zero funding or resources back to Wordpress, and then bicker with wp throughout this drama.

                    • Arainach 15 hours ago

                      >contribute zero funding or resources

                      Demonstrably not true. Matt may not be happy with the amount of resource, but people associated with WPE make all sorts of contributions to the Wordpress community.

                      The Wordpress license does not require any contributions. If they wanted that to be forced they should have licensed accordingly. To demand payment to Matt's for-profit company and withhold access to the non-profit Wordpress.org is a shakedown akin to demanding protection money, full stop.

                      • 0cf8612b2e1e 15 hours ago

                        So…did everything they are legally allowed to do? I get Redis and Elastic Search are mad at Amazon, but that’s what happens when you release code under an open license.

                        Also, the recent ACF business would show that WPE were being stewards of one of the backbone plugins of the ecosystem.

                        • runako 15 hours ago

                          If WP was supposed to have a new class of license (let's call it "transactional source"), they really should have published with that license.

                          Instead, they licensed under Stallman's GPL2. Given his general ethos around freedom of software, I would honestly be curious to hear his thoughts on using trademark as a cudgel to arbitrarily prevent otherwise-permitted uses of GPL-licensed code.

                        • snowwrestler 14 hours ago

                          Building a massive business out of an open source project is by itself a huge contribution to the project. Ecosystem growth is a tide that lifts all ships.

                          • lesuorac 14 hours ago

                            Can't wait for Linus to start badmouthing everybody that offers linux hosting.

                      • Mistletoe 15 hours ago
                        • bossyTeacher 15 hours ago

                          > Is there a clear "bad guy" in this

                          In real life bad guys mostly don't exist. It is fiction. In real life you have people with no power and people with power.

                          • labster 15 hours ago

                            On one side is a big corporation that doesn’t give back very much to the open source community on which it profits. On the other side is an executive who will do everything in his power end the aforementioned abuse, including his nonprofit directing money into his for-profit, and even destroying the entire software ecosystem and individual developer’s livelihoods.

                            Consensus seems to be that the Matt/Automattic is worse than WP Engine, if only through stupidity and hubris.

                            • gamblor956 12 hours ago

                              WPE maintains a number of community plug-ins and until last week was the single biggest corporate sponsor of WordPress community events.

                              • salesynerd 12 hours ago

                                Not siding with either Matt or WPE, but I think just sponsoring community events should not be giving back enough. If I remember clearly, companies like Google, Microsoft, etc. spend substantial (to the community) monetary and non-monetary support to many open-source projects, in addition to sponsoring community events.

                          • gman83 15 hours ago

                            I have dozens of clients on WordPress and I've not heard from a single one. I'm pretty worried personally, though.

                            • bigiain 14 hours ago

                              We've had 3 queries so far out of about two dozen clients on WP/WPEngine.

                              We are _actively_ making contingency plans. But our best estimate at this stage is that WPEngine will provide a suitable way to keep all our WPEngine sites running at least in the short and medium term, but we are also making disaster plans in case this all goes, as Matt intends, "nuclear".

                              Matt keeps talking about how he's doing this "for the WordPress Community", but as I commented elsewhere:

                              So far as I can tell, when Matt talks about "the WordPress Community", he means:

                                - Matt
                                - the people who didn't quit Automattic last week
                                - _maybe_ the WP core developers who don't work at Automattic, so long as they keep their criticisms to themselves
                              
                              And the community of people who _use_ WordPress to run their websites, and the people who help them to do that, and the 3rd party plugin and theme developers who make WP work for so many different kinds of websites - can all go and get fucked.
                              • belorn 13 hours ago

                                I can see how clients that have sites hosted on WPEngine can be a bit concerned. Did you receive any queries by people who do not have anything hosted by WPEngine, but rather simply have a wordpress site on some other hosting company/self-hosted?

                                I work at a hosting company and we have received zero questions, and we have a fair larger number of clients who sites are built on wordpress. In terms of going nuclear, anything regarding trademark will have zero impact on our clients.

                                • bigiain 12 hours ago

                                  Yeah. One of those clients is hosted on GCE. She is quite technical and plugged into general IT news, and they are in the middle of due diligence with potential investors though.

                                  > In terms of going nuclear, anything regarding trademark will have zero impact on our clients.

                                  Is that true if Matt/Automattic win against WPEngine, and he starts using that as precident and starts demanding 8% of revenue as his standard shakedown on anybody who's used the "WordPress" trademark to generate revenue?

                                  • belorn 3 hours ago

                                    Yes, it is true. Websites built on wordpress do not generally use wordpress trademark to generate revenue. Its not recommended to have footers that says "built on wordpress", nor is recommended to keep the default website icon. If the client is, say a medical company that sells medical products, any reference to wordpress would be unprofessional to have on their company website.

                                    Is that client of yours a web developing company that focus on wordpress in their marketing?

                              • chairmansteve 15 hours ago

                                Why are you worried? I am struggling to understand why anyone cares. I am not a WordPress user though.

                                The WordPress code is available to WPEngine. How are Mullenweg's actions damaging them?

                                • fortyseven 15 hours ago

                                  So you don't use it, or understand anything about what's going on, apparently, but you have big opinions on it contrary to those who actually do know what's up. Brilliant. No notes.

                                  • chairmansteve 13 hours ago

                                    I don't see any opinion in my post. I am literally asking why this is important. Are you a troll?

                                    • edanm 7 hours ago

                                      I think the phrase "struggling to understand why anyone cares" implies that you think no on should care.

                                      Maybe that's not what you meant. I have no dog in this fight. Just telling you why someone would assume you are expressing an opinion.

                                      • SAI_Peregrinus 12 hours ago

                                        Automattic are claiming they own the trademark on WordPress, WP, etc, when it comes to CMS software & hosting of that software.

                                        WP Engine is a prominent hosting provider for WordPress, who also contribute several very popular plugins.

                                        Automattic have sued WP Engine. Automattic have blocked WP Engine from updating any of their plugins, or anything else on wordpress.org. A vulnerability was found in a WP Engine plugin, and Automattic have taken it over (but are not doing any maintenance). Automattic's CEO went on a number of unhinged rants here and elsewhere.

                                        • Brian_K_White 12 hours ago

                                          You very clearly expressed the opinion that no one should care what Matt has done.

                                • upwardbound 15 hours ago

                                  Reminds me a little bit of Arduino LLC vs Arduino SRL. (which was ultimately resolved amicably)

                                  https://hackaday.com/2016/10/01/arduino-vs-arduino-arduino-w...

                                  • asar 15 hours ago

                                    WPE's core business is "hosting for WordPress websites". If they were to change this to "ForkPress", they'll have to rebuild the brand and search volume behind it. So I'm not convinced that this is a viable solution to their current problem.

                                    • huskyr 15 hours ago

                                      I doubt many developers will get on a WP Engine fork of WordPress. Maybe if they funded an independent non-profit foundation that would take care of a fork that could work, but you still need the traction of the community to make it a success.

                                      • runako 14 hours ago

                                        If it were WPE only, that is true. But right now there are some very large companies also in the crosshairs as possibly next on the list:

                                        - GoDaddy

                                        - Amazon (AWS)

                                        - Bluehost

                                        - Dreamhost

                                        and about a thousand smaller hosts, all of whom would be very unhappy to suddenly have to pay 8% of revenue to Automattic.

                                        A real community-owned fork could quickly get a lot of traction.

                                        • belorn 13 hours ago

                                          How would wordpress.org go after those in this scenario? The original trademark claim seems a bit far fetched in order those other hosting providers (are they using wordpress trademark and branding in marketing?). If they are, how much impact would it do to them if they stopped?

                                          Amazon has a product they call Amazon lightsail. The only trademark issue I can identify is that they use the wordpress logo, which is fairly simple to remove if wordpress decide that it is no longer allowed. Do anyone else see something there that could be a trademark issue?

                                          • runako 10 hours ago

                                            IANAL but if Automattic decides that its name can't be used in the context of third-party hosting, that could be a problem for the preconfigured installer feature of Lightsail. I don't know how big an impact it would be for them, but presumably it's somewhat important given they highlight the preconfigured installer on the site. Many other hosts offer this as well.

                                            GoDaddy has a menu item for "WordPress hosting," which is exactly what got WPE into trouble. Namecheap has "WordPress" in its navbar.

                                            Beyond hosting, the theme retailers (like Themeforest) could find themselves in the crosshairs. The plugin developers.

                                            Anybody who uses "WordPress" in their marketing. If you sell an add-on for WordPress, you probably need to say "WordPress" somewhere in your collateral, and this may mean you own Automattic a percentage of your revenue.

                                            The problem is nobody knows, because the proposed rules are unwritten. Working in the WordPress ecosystem just had an unquantifiable amount of platform risk added, where there was effectively none at the beginning of the year.

                                            • ValentineC 9 hours ago

                                              > The problem is nobody knows, because the proposed rules are unwritten.

                                              Under US law, trademarks can be used by other companies under fair use:

                                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use_(U.S._trademark_law)

                                              It'll ultimately be up to the courts to decide what the extent of this fair use is.

                                              • belorn 3 hours ago

                                                If you are a car repair shop, it would be fairly difficult if you could not name the brand of cars that you support. If you call yourself "Ford Repairs" you might get into trouble, but saying that you can change oil on a Fords seems fairly clear as to be permitted under fair use.

                                                From what I see it seems a fairly common practice that companies get explicit trademark permissions if they are an official retailer, official supplier, have employees that is official trained, or has some other direct relationship with the trademark holder. Companies without such permissions have to rely on fair use rules. Retailers and webshops generally also list what product or brands that they sell without being in conflict with trademark.

                                                • runako 9 hours ago

                                                  > It'll ultimately be up to the courts to decide what the extent of this fair use is.

                                                  That's the unquantifiable platform risk that has been added.

                                            • bigiain 13 hours ago

                                              And companies like WHM/cPanel and Plesk - who provide 1 click Wordpress installs for a huge number of otherwise non-Wordpress specialist web hosting companies.

                                              I'd guess a _huge_ part of WordPress's "customer acquisition" comes from small businesses who started out on cheap shared hosting for their email/dns/website using cPanel or Plesk (or similar). That's clearly a big market, given how much Wix and SquareSpace spend advertising for it.

                                              I wouldn't be surprised to learn cPanel had as many WordPress using customers as WPEngine - and it's now owned by PE as well.

                                              > A real community-owned fork could quickly get a lot of traction.

                                              I suspect a WordPress fork developed by a consortium of companies who offer Wp as a Service? Perhaps a having them all fund a non-profit Mozilla like foundation (well, Mozilla circa 2015, before they decided to become and AI and Ad company who's apparent goal is to attract more and more sketchy grifting C level execs and make them rich).

                                              • runako 10 hours ago

                                                > I wouldn't be surprised to learn cPanel had as many WordPress using customers as WPEngine - and it's now owned by PE as well.

                                                I would bet that WPE is not nearly the largest WP host by # of sites. Bluehost, for ex, is claiming millions of WP sites.

                                                > WordPress fork developed by a consortium of companies who offer Wp as a Service

                                                Exactly this. And folks working in the broader ecosystem (themes, plugins, retailers of the above, potentially contract WP developers as they also have to use trademarked terms in marketing) also have an incentive to work with such a fork.

                                                MariaDB is a solid example of a community fork taking root when the corporate owner became perceived as being unstable.

                                            • mbreese 15 hours ago

                                              I don't know about that. I think there are many different definitions of success here. WP Engine would want to make sure that it's customers are well taken care of and have a solid web hosting experience. That would be success to them. I'm not sure how much they would care about outside users or developers (they might care a lot, but I don't know). But, the real question is -- would a fork benefit their customers?

                                              If the answer is yes, then I expect to see a fork happen quickly. That may be the only way (or best way) for them to keep some degree of control over their system.

                                              • skmurphy 14 hours ago

                                                "WP Engine would want to make sure that it's customers are well taken care of and have a solid web hosting experience."

                                                This is certainly one of their goals, if only to prevent or reduce churn.

                                                But WP Engine is now owned by Silver Lake, a private equity firm, they no doubt have aggressive growth and profitability targets. Anything that injects confusion into their branding or increases costs is counter to their goals

                                                The real question is the 8% "contribution" that WP is asking for cheaper than other alternatives. The lawsuits are cheaper if they win, but a dead loss if they don't.

                                              • zeronine 15 hours ago

                                                All a new foundation needs for traction is a policy against admin dashboard spam

                                              • whalesalad 15 hours ago

                                                Someone needs to leverage WASM and other container methods to build an entirely new version of WP with a solid architecture that can still leverage the existing ecosystem by isolating/sandboxing popular themes and plugins and making them think they are running in WP.

                                                • mmaunder 15 hours ago
                                                  • whalesalad 15 hours ago

                                                    I mean more of a new core that is non-php, non-wordpress that can leverage these ancillary things at the perimiter via something like this.

                                                    So method calls to `wp_get_archives` would still work, but that would be redirected under the hood to a cleaner arch on something like Python, or Golang, or Rust, or whatever.

                                                    • appendix-rock 15 hours ago

                                                      This sounds like some sort of attempt at Ultimate Scope Creep. How did we get from ‘licensing faux-issue’ to ‘a complete rebuild with a very complex architecture just to support the plugin ecosystem’?

                                                      • whalesalad 15 hours ago

                                                        WP has needed this for a very long time, this is just the proverbial straw breaking the camels back.

                                                        • bigiain 13 hours ago

                                                          > WP has needed this for a very long time

                                                          Said no-one using WP for their website ever.

                                                          To a first approximation, about zero people/companies have a problem they need solved which boils down to "I need a replacement for WordPress using a significantly more modern and better architected codebase."

                                                          By far the most common problem people are solving by using Wordpress is "I need to be able to fix website errors/typos without calling up a web development agency and waiting 2 weeks and paying $1000, and I need to be able update my homepage or add new pages which then fit into the menus and site navigation easily". Second most common problem they're solving is "I need a website which is easy and affordable to employ or contract experience people to edit and manage it for me".

                                                          Not a single WPEngine or wordpress.com customer has ever chosen or rejected them because they asked themselves "Is this run on a mess of legacy early 2000s vintage PHP and badly designed MySQL databases, or does the backend run beautifully architected and formatted Rust/Haskel/Go?"

                                                          • whalesalad 9 hours ago

                                                            I don’t want to hear it. I’d posit I’ve been working with WP longer than you.

                                                            Ask yourself: why did WP engine come into existence?

                                                            • bigiain 8 hours ago

                                                              > I’d posit I’ve been working with WP longer than you.

                                                              Perhaps? Maybe I'm older than I look... I've never specialised in WP, but my earliest WP work was on 2.5 back in 2008-ish after I jumped ship from a gruelling (and failing) startup. I was doing mostly WP sites at an agency during 2010-2013 almost all using cPanel shared hosting. In 2014 I moved to a place using Wordpress on Plesk shared hosting which had several really bad downtimes and performance problems, and searching my email the first WPEngine invoice came when I migrated a bunch of those sites to WPE in 2015. I've been happily using and recommending them ever since. Sure there are lots of people with more year's experience, but I've got a good 15 years or so, and I think that means my opinions are at least based in the real world.

                                                              WPEngine came into existence, at least from my point of view, because there was so much _bad_ Wordpress hosting available at the time.

                                                              My experience with 7 years of shared cPanel/Plex hosting on random ISPs or some generalised everything-to-everybody domain registry, domain registrar, web hosting company, SEO consultants, internet security snake oil salesmen like GoDaddy or Dreamhost, compared to specialist WP hosting with WPEngine - has been night and day. Where I work now, we happily refer clients looking for $5/month web hosting away to a few sole trader web devs we respect who handle those sorts of customers, and anyone who doesn't bat an eyelid at WPEngine's prices (plus our markup) gets hosted there with all the performance, uptime, and value add benefits they bring to the table.

                                                              I'm sure other people have different experiences. IU;m sure there are other dedicated WordPress hosting companies out there these days who are as good or better than WPEngine at least for some use cases. I'm sure there are other companies with as good or nearly as good offerings for less money than WPEngine. For me though, they are absolutely worth the extra cost for all the value add they bring alongside WP core and wordpress.org repos - except for people looking for lowest possible cost and are prepared to accept worse performance and less good hosting tools.

                                                  • bigiain 13 hours ago

                                                    No. Not from my point of view, as someone who has a couple of dozen WordPress clients.

                                                    "Someone" needs a CMS that's able to be securely, performantly, and professionally managed by hosting companies, and that is as easy for small and medium businesses to use and as easy to find experienced staff and agencies to help run.

                                                    We do not recommend as use WordPress because of it's "solid architecture" or "isolation/sandboxing" or it's FE Dev buzzword de jour use of "exciting" "new" technology.

                                                    We recommend it because the Widget Factory owner can probably get one of his grandkids or niece/nephews to act as website editor for him, or the piano teacher can get one of their students to help out with their website in return for discounted lessons, or the online store owner can easily employ someone with WordPress admin experience to get themselves off eBay/Marketplace and onto their own website. Or the lawyer/plumber/accountant/whoever's office manager or "that young staff member who's good with computers" can run Wordpress - perhaps with assistance of their existing outside IT consultants to install/manage it and perhaps setup/customise it initially.

                                                    None of those people care about whether it's written in Rust, or uses WASM, or is dockerized and autoscaling. Their #1 problem is "can I quickly update my website if I find an error or if I have to put an important message to my customers on my homepage?" #2 is "can I easily learn how to do simple edits to my site, and can I easily find employees can work with it, and can I finb contractors/agencies who'll be able to help with more complex changes/updated?" and somewhere down below #1 is "is my site at least reasonably secure from being hacked, and if it is hacked can I get it restored/repaired rapidly".

                                                    There are dozens or hundreds of "better technology choices" that WordPress these days. It's really hard to find a "better business choice" for a lot of projects though.

                                                    • whalesalad 9 hours ago

                                                      All of your arguments go out the window when the foundation disappears. That’s what is happening now. Wordpress isn’t good in and of itself. It’s good due to the community of developers working on it, and likewise the plugins they have painstakingly created (despite the terrible programming environment)

                                                      That’s gone now.

                                                      • bigiain 8 hours ago

                                                        Yes. and that's sad. Very sad.

                                                        Having said that, it seems that many people (me included) have been assuming things about "the WordPress Foundation" that are not true. It apparently is _not_ the steward of the wordpress.org repository of 3rd party themes and plugins the "community of developers" painstakingly created, and that have made WordPress "good" for so many different people. As far as I can tell, "the foundation" does whatever it does on a tax filing declared budget of around $22,000 (so, not much?) - and it exists mostly as a non profit "owner" of some trademarks that it immediately exclusively and irrevocably licensed for commercial use back to Automattic the same day they got given them.

                                                        I'm pretty sure "the foundation" could have disappeared anytime in the last decade, or could remain to exist for another decade or two to come, and either way wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. It's not the foundation that's gone, it's the trust in the Wordpress core development leadership, the trust in the wordpress.org theme/plugin leadership, and the trust that the WordPress trademark is safe to use in perfectly normal and legal ways without the treat of being extorted if you start making too much money.

                                                  • lolinder 15 hours ago

                                                    > A WordPress fork is also something Automattic fears, as it was oddly mentioned in a term sheet...

                                                    Matt has explained that that language was actually addressing allegations that WP Engine forked the WooCommerce Stripe extension and replacing attribution. For whatever Matt's explanations are worth these days.

                                                    The language of the term sheet certainly could have been read as preventing them from forking WordPress as well, so it's possible that was an ulterior motive.

                                                    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41726622

                                                    • throwawaymaths 15 hours ago

                                                      Is this really the case? Maybe I'm missing something, but yhe WordPress codebase is still available, what is not is the one repository for convenient one shot downloads. You could create an equivalent repo off of one of the existing mirrors or put it together yourself off of the codebase.

                                                      So maybe someone will fork the repository? But hosting is expensive, especially if you're going to get hit by something at the scale of WPEngine.

                                                      • bigiain 12 hours ago

                                                        > You could create an equivalent repo off of one of the existing mirrors

                                                        Can you though? And if so, for how much longer?

                                                        Matt is already not letting developers log into wordpress.org without disclaiming any relationship with WPEngine. He is 100% going to demand the same from people mirroring that repo as soon as he thinks of it.

                                                        > But hosting is expensive, especially if you're going to get hit by something at the scale of WPEngine.

                                                        CloudFlare offered to do that for free. Matt said "Fuck you! I'm destroying WordPress instead, for the communiteeeeeeee!"

                                                        • ValentineC 15 hours ago

                                                          > You could create an equivalent repo off of one of the existing mirrors or put it together yourself off of the codebase.

                                                          https://www.reddit.com/r/AspirePress/

                                                          • johnchristopher 15 hours ago

                                                            Hey, they have a new logo !

                                                        • Apreche 15 hours ago

                                                          What's the difference between a zombie fork and just a regular old fork?

                                                          • kaptain 15 hours ago

                                                            The article explains it as a fork that just blindly copies the changes in the original source to avoid legal complications but not add any new technical value.

                                                            • Apreche 15 hours ago

                                                              Does that mean they merge the actual code from upstream? If they do that, I wouldn't call that a fork. I'd call it a mirror. I'm not exactly sure how that provides any of the benefits the author suggests.

                                                              Do they look at the changelog of upstream and have engineers re-implement the same things only with original code? That seems like a significant waste of resources just to try to duplicate someone else's efforts.

                                                              • bigiain 13 hours ago

                                                                "Mirror"? Maybe?

                                                                I'd argue that what WPEngine sells (rents?) is perhaps closer to a "distro" in the Redhat/Ubuntu/Arch/whatever sense.

                                                                They use WordPress core the way Ubuntu uses the Linux kernel. They use the GPL themes/plugins the way they use all the gnu utils. They use paid/pro plugins and themes like Ubuntu uses restricted and multiverse repos. If they feel the need, they can customise the kernel/core within the restrictions and obligations of the GPL however they choose to.

                                                                And WPEngine then wrap WordPress core in a whole bunch of what they and their customers consider "value add". Easy and automated backup/restore, one click dev/staging versions of the site and the ability to promote those into production when desired, automated provisioning and renewal of ssl certs, curated plugin backlists, monitoring and affected customer notifications of security updates across 3rd party plugin/themes as well as core, platform level WordPress specific optimisation, managed OS and web server and database security patching and updates. And like RedHat, they provide a "single neck to tread on" when something goes badly wrong: a support department that's both experienced and capable of solving pretty much any WP disaster 24x7, with a platform that can quickly and easily use to provide the needed help, and a pre existing business/financial relationship so both sides of that disaster and recovery are at least partially coincident it'll be charged and paid fairly and promptly.

                                                                For every single one of our WP clients, all that value add is totally worth the price jump from $5/month on GoDaddy et al. to $25/month of WPEngine. And for us, WPEngine has a better offering for what we value than wordpress.com.

                                                                • pests 15 hours ago

                                                                  The idea being the project is the same, the management is not.

                                                                  > Do they look at the changelog of upstream and have engineers re-implement the same things only with original code

                                                                  No, but they may selectively ignore features or changes that might have caused the fork in the first place.

                                                                • dmurray 15 hours ago

                                                                  Are there any examples of people doing this and getting away with it?

                                                                  There are words for what can happen if you copy source code you don't have a licence to and use it commercially, but they aren't "avoid legal complications".

                                                                  • kristianc 14 hours ago

                                                                    WordPress code is all GPL

                                                                    • snowwrestler 14 hours ago

                                                                      If you copy Wordpress code, you do have a license to it.

                                                                • MBCook 15 hours ago

                                                                  I’ve been wondering if this will end up with another Jenkins or LibreOffice, where a fork is made and quickly gains mindshare.

                                                                  Given the complexity and importance of UI in the project, LO may be the better example.

                                                                  • Log_out_ 7 hours ago

                                                                    The free janitor rebellion shallbe put down and free lunch restored .

                                                                    • jongjong 15 hours ago

                                                                      Watching people fight over this crummy old tech is like watching pigs wrestling in mud.

                                                                      • gman83 15 hours ago

                                                                        I've been looking for an alternative that let's me set up a site for non-technical users but I haven't found any open-source alternative. With Wordpress I can install something like GeneratePress & Blocks, set up ACF and add some custom fields, and anyone can manage the site. End users don't want to be writing React and Tailwind to edit their site.

                                                                        • lrae 14 hours ago

                                                                          Payload 3 (currently beta) doesn't look bad, but a site still needs some work from somebody who can at least somewhat code, and it's not just installing wordpress, generatepress and ACF.

                                                                          Same for Directus.

                                                                          But again, not a 1-to-1 WP replacement.

                                                                          • g8oz 13 hours ago

                                                                            I think any sort of headless CMS or at least one with a decoupled presentation layer would work well these days. directus, webflow etc.

                                                                            • bigiain 12 hours ago

                                                                              Tell me of one where a small business can get an experienced CMS user/editor/publisher on practically zero notice, and at basically regular office admin payrates.

                                                                              _That_ is WordPress's "killer feature".

                                                                              And its why my best guess at the long term outcome here involves a smoking crater where Matt's reputation and Automattic/wordpress.com/WordPress Foundation/wprdpress.org used to be, and either a similarly "Mutually Assured Destruction" crater where WPEngine once was, or perhaps a decimated-by-legal-bills hollow shell of what it is now.

                                                                              And something like ClassicPress or AspirePress or other forks to "soak up" the huge existing talent pool of people who know how to run websites using something close enough to what WordPress used to be, and the thousands for hundreds of thousands of theme/plugin developers and Wordpress specialist developers/agencies/contractors choosing to hitch their professional lives to one or all of the emergent forks.

                                                                              And for millions of website owners to shake their heads again at how annoying but essential IT nerds and their stupid drama are for them to run their business/website...

                                                                          • gehsty 15 hours ago

                                                                            …if the mud was millions of dollars

                                                                            • ValentineC 15 hours ago

                                                                              More like billions of dollars. Automattic themselves supposedly have half a billion in revenue — the entire pie is much bigger than that.

                                                                              • undefined 15 hours ago
                                                                                [deleted]
                                                                            • undefined 15 hours ago
                                                                              [deleted]
                                                                              • lofaszvanitt 14 hours ago

                                                                                Just someone release a trojan that zeroes all wordpress sites and every repo that contains the source code. Let them recreate that abomination again.

                                                                                • yapyap 15 hours ago

                                                                                  I have been seeing headlines about this WordPress vs WPG or wordpressengine thing for a bit now and honestly, I’m sorry to say it but who cares.

                                                                                  When the “war” settles we will see what the outcome will be, no earlier.

                                                                                  • bigiain 12 hours ago

                                                                                    > who cares

                                                                                    Almost nobody.

                                                                                    Except the people who are responsible for or manage 40+% of the websites on the internet. The ones who are aware of how early they might become "acceptable collateral damage" to Matt's deranged "nuclear" "war" on WPEngine, and the business ramifications of "waiting till the war settles" if that means significant website downtime or emergency website migration to avoid it.

                                                                                    Which, if the numbers I've seen bandied around are accurate, is something like $400mil annual revenue to WPEngine, representing over a million WPEngine websites who are _directly_ in danger of Matt's current supply chain attacks. And with dozens or hundreds of smaller WordPress hosting companies looking on in horror wondering if they and their customers are next in Matt's extortion war. And probably tens of thousands of web dev firms and digital agencies who're all thinking "WTF?" and making contingency plans for all their WordPress clients no matter where they're hosting them.

                                                                                  • throwaway19972 15 hours ago

                                                                                    Maybe we can have a better world if we don't try to make money off of software development.

                                                                                    • seanw444 15 hours ago

                                                                                      Have fun with less/no good software. I'm one of the biggest proponents of FOSS software you can find, but eliminating moneymaking schemes entirely for everyone is just fantastical.