• chipdart 12 hours ago

    From the article:

    > “Unfortunately, from a scientific point of view, we can’t really evaluate what was in the documentary because they offered no data from the analysis whatsoever,” Antonio Alonso, a geneticist and former director of Spain’s National Institute of Toxicology and Forensic Sciences told El País.

    So, baseless speculation used by the Spanish regime to claim Christopher Columbus as Spanish during the Spanish national day?

    The funny part is that none of this matters for things other than nationalist talking points.

    • juunpp 41 minutes ago

      How does a Jew discovering the Americas benefit the Spanish regime when the Spanish Catholic monarchy precisely kicked all Jews and Muslims from the peninsula with their ill-named "reconquista"? If this turns out to be true, then it'd be rather ironical.

      Presumably this Lorente has more evidence he hasn't put on display, so it isn't completely baseless either.

      It's certainly sketchy and not very scientific, though, per the same criticism outlined in the article.

      I also don't understand why people get a boner with Columbus. It is since the Greeks that people knew the world was not flat, and the vikings (presumably Leif Erikson) landed in Canada much earlier after a quick hop from Greeland. The only questions left at that point were: how big is that land over there, and can you get to India traveling West? It's all good and stuff, but not mind-blowing to me.

      • shsbdksn 5 minutes ago

        Ill named?

    • dang 4 hours ago

      Recent and related:

      DNA study confirms Christopher Columbus’s remains are entombed in Seville - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41821939 - Oct 2024 (66 comments)

      • chucke 3 hours ago

        Spain still working on the national identity while not reconciling that its two most famous sailors were a portuguese and a genovese. You can see it in claims like these or the internal reframing of the magellan voyage as the "magellan-elcano expedition ".

        • franciscop 13 minutes ago

          OTOH there's well known and documented anti-Spanish propaganda during the centuries by basically the rest of Europe (Protestants specifically), so I start to doubt claims from both sides (disclaimer: I'm Spaniard):

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend

        • profsummergig 13 hours ago

          > “The DNA indicates that Christopher Columbus’s origin lay in the western Mediterranean,” said the researcher. “If there weren’t Jews in Genoa in the 15th century, the likelihood that he was from there is minimal. Neither was there a big Jewish presence in the rest of the Italian peninsula, which makes things very tenuous.”

          Does anyone else think that this is a poorly argued piece?

          Being Jewish, and having some Jewish DNA: are they the same thing? Is it not possible that many many people in Genoa could have had Jewish ancestors? After all, most of Jesus's disciples were Jewish (please correct me if I'm wrong).

          • GloomyBoots 2 hours ago

            There’s also the phrasing “compatible with Jewish origin”. That doesn’t mean that he definitively has Jewish DNA either, especially given that there are no specifically Jewish haplogroups. This whole thing seems very premature until autosomal analysis is performed.

            • Philadelphia an hour ago

              As a person with Jewish ancestry from the Italian peninsula in the 15th Century, I can say there are some other issues with this.

              • dumbo-octopus 13 hours ago

                All of Jesus’s original disciples were Jewish.

                And you can be certainly be Jewish without having Jewish DNA, but there’s some controversy as to whether the reverse is true.

                • MathMonkeyMan 4 hours ago

                  David Cross has a funny [bit][1] about whether the reverse is true.

                  [1]: https://youtu.be/z09So1j4kpk?t=378

                  • Bulb7187 16 minutes ago

                    Is he not aware of the concept of ethnicity? Native Americans, Romani, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds, and Sikhs tie religion and ethnicity.

                • nudpiedo 3 hours ago

                  I've read the new in spanish, it was not just labeled as jewish but as sefardic jewish line (the one particular from spanish jews). Most of them converted to christianity (the called "new christians") and remained in Spain.

                  On the other hand, Jewish were expelled from the whole italic peninsula (including Genoa, etc) after very extreme period of persecution 2 centuries earlier.

                  • endtime 3 hours ago

                    > Being Jewish, and having some Jewish DNA: are they the same thing?

                    Judaism is based on matrilineal descent, so depending on where the DNA comes from, yes.

                    • tlogan 3 hours ago

                      I’m really confused by this argument. How does it account for the Apostle Paul?

                      • User23 3 hours ago

                        Jewishness by matrilineal descent was a later Rabbinic innovation, probably around the third century. In Paul’s day it was still patrilineal. Even today your tribe is patrilineal.

                  • phendrenad2 an hour ago

                    Someday people will be having debates about the ethnicity of every prominent person in the current era. That's a depressing thought.

                    • egberts 3 hours ago

                      Interesting that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella issued the Alhambra Decree to kick the Jews out ot Spain shortly after Christopher Columbus, a Sephardic Jew, reached the Americas.

                      This was even after the Jews heavily funded the Spaniard military in the conquest of Gibraltar.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

                      • susidhfjcbd 15 minutes ago

                        > This was even after the Jews heavily funded the Spaniard military in the conquest of Gibraltar.

                        To be fair, it was also after they aided the initial Muslim conquest of Spain and assisted the new Muslim rulers in subjugating the native Christian population.

                        • nudpiedo 3 hours ago

                          The purpose was to convert most of population to christianity to achieve cultural unity, and the ones who wouldn't convert had to leave. Usually it is explained only as an expulsion of the jews.

                          P.D: there are many theories around Gibraltar, specially since it was during succession war and the country was in a civil war.

                          • dullcrisp 40 minutes ago

                            I think it would have been more polite if they all converted to Judaism is cultural unity was the goal.

                        • jorgemendes 14 hours ago

                          Well, just the best fit for being presented in the Spanish national day but, it's more complicated than that...of course. What was presented was not science.

                          https://elpais.com/ciencia/2024-10-12/el-show-del-adn-de-cri...

                          • transfire 3 hours ago

                            Oh brother. I’m sure most of the European world has some Jewish descendants somewhere in there blood line. Hell, even Hilter did! Why is that a big deal? As if having some Jewish descendant makes everything you ever did a Jewish accomplishment.

                            • woodruffw an hour ago

                              I don’t think anyone besides a few Spanish and Italian ultranationalists are interested in claiming Columbus’s “accomplishments.” Any evidence of Columbus being Jewish is mostly interesting for anthropological and historical reasons, not chest-beating ones.

                            • JoeAltmaier 12 hours ago

                              Oops.

                              There go the big Columbus Day celebrations, sponsored by Italian-American societies.

                              • beardyw 5 hours ago

                                The thing is that as our number of ancestors expands going back, the gene pool gets ever smaller. Historically we are all related in the end.

                                • cjbenedikt 6 hours ago

                                  Unpublished, not peer reviewed. Some skeptik academics.

                                  • gizajob 6 hours ago

                                    a.k.a an Italian

                                    • gnabgib 8 hours ago

                                      Discussion (50 points, 22 hours ago, 46 conments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41821939