• austin-cheney an hour ago

    There was an article similar to this less than 2 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41566097

    This whole issue of writing for people really distills down to two skills:

    1. Empathy

    2. Writing

    There is a world of difference between writing some code and writing an application, a product. That is all this article is about, though less explicitly. Empathy is a factor in this because its the difference between self-orientation and external-orientation. Self-orientated developers are primarily concerned with easiness, convenience, code vanity, and other subjectivity criteria. It comes down only to their effort of delivery.

    Externally-oriented developers are primarily concerned with architecture and documentation because for them success is all about how other people receive their work product. Simplicity is more important than easiness because externally-oriented developers know they cannot read minds and have no idea what other people find easy, but they do know how to reduce steps and keep their code small.

    In the brain writing an application, from a holistic product perspective, is no different than writing an essay, article, or book. Its all about organization and features. The code is something that comes later, like words on a page. For people who only write pieces of code they never develop the higher order organizational skills that brings it all together. It also works in the inverse in that if a person cannot write an essay with ease they cannot envision writing a new application.

    Those are the reasons I super detest frameworks. Frameworks deprive developers the practice necessary to write original software which means they are not developing those organizational skills. Its a massive gap that the inflicted cannot see, but is so enormously apparent to those that can see it. From a behavior perspective its no different than a learning or neurological disorder in that the inflicted know something is missing, but have no means to see what that something is, and that drives massive emotional insecurity.

    • photonthug an hour ago

      > “Humans learn from examples, not from “core concepts”

      Nitpicking maybe but I disagree with tfa on this point; not all humans work this way. Those of us who might actually prefer the general -> specific direction are already largely ignored in k12 and may only begin to thrive in higher education. Since we’re already kind of underserved, there’s no need to also deny that we exist!

      • corytheboyd an hour ago

        I need both. Truly learning for me is learning core concepts, but examples are “known correct” cases I can test that understanding against. If something in the example is surprising, I know my model isn’t complete yet (or the example is wrong lol)

        • layer8 an hour ago

          I also find “known incorrect” examples to be useful, for analogous reasons.

          But the worst is when there is no good and thorough description of the conceptual model and of how the concrete examples relate to it, because then the system remains a black box you can’t properly reason about, regardless of how many hands-on tutorials and cookbook examples you’ve seen.

        • bityard an hour ago

          Maybe I'm dimmer than the average techie, but I need both. Much of my current job is frustrating because it's a big company and every new task I encounter is presented with only an example of how the previous person did it. Instead of, "This is what we're trying to achieve, this is how the thing works, this is how we do it," all that ever gets exposed to ICs is the "this is how we do it" part. This makes it impossible to reason about, adjust, and troubleshoot when even the slightest deviation is required. Yes, there is often SOME documentation tasks which are performed very often, but it's often outdated or incomplete. But it's not in a wiki, so not just anyone can updated at any time, there's a whole obnoxious process for updating the docs, which is why they never get updated.

          Now that I think of it, this reminds me quite a bit of my time in the military...

          • layer8 an hour ago

            The thing is that you can derive the “this is how to do it” from the first two, but not the other way around. While it’s very helpful to have all three, the first two are essential while the last one is not.

          • vbezhenar an hour ago

            Yeah, it might be me. I learned microcontrollers by learning assembly, gdb, as, ld, then gradually switched to C, wrote my own "library", then slowly learned about vendor library and gradually replaced by code with proper approach.

            Can't imagine learning this stuff from the vendor code examples. I wouldn't understand a thing.

            This approach works for me, but only when documentation is extensive. When vendor suggests "copy this example and tinker with code until it works the way you want", this approach just throws me off and I absolutely lose any will to learn. Examples are very important, but not as starting point.

          • CharlieDigital an hour ago

            From Code Complete:

                “The smaller part of the job of programming is writing a program so that the computer can read it; the larger part is writing it so that other humans can read it.” (P.733)
            
            Has stayed with me for ~20 years.
            • animal531 4 hours ago

              Bit of a side issue for me: I was working on my Unity game the other day and thought to myself, have IDE's really not progressed all that much in the last 10-20 years?

              Default intellisense has definitely gotten a lot better, but apart from that and a few other minor things the whole concept of coding feels pretty much the same today as back then.

              The biggest positive change for me is outside of the editor, it has become easier thanks to much more access to libraries, documentation and just the sheer volume of user questions and answer sets we now have access to (and finally some new tools like ChatGPT that can aggregate those answers to on occasion deliver a reasonable answer).

              But overall the act of writing code seems to be stuck. As a result I'm currently taking some time out from my game to run some experiments. I don't want to create a new language, but instead I want to try and offload everything I can to the computer, let it do the drudge work while allowing me to create.

              Just 3 of the initial things I want to test: - Why do I need to worry about small language specifics like brackets, terminators and so on when tools should be able to auto-complete them for me? What about the private-public access chain (as well as other modifiers such as unsafe) when tools can auto-determine the most efficient set? - You're editing a file (or parts of different files) and are focusing on say 5 methods that are interacting. I want to see all of them on the screen at the same time, without having to struggle to open and manage many windows with for example VS horizontal/vertical sliders. - Data conversion. So I created a HashSet for something but realize I need to change it to a Dictionary or a Tuple, just make it happen. If it requires brainwork then show me all the places that requires supervision where I have to say ok or make an edit myself. In the case of Unity I also want to be able to click on a method and/or data set and tell it to convert it to a Burst Job with its accompanying NativeData sets.

              • skydhash 2 hours ago

                > The whole concept of coding feels pretty much the same today as back then.

                The whole concept of programming languages has not changed that much. We have the two big pillars that is the Turing Machine and Lambda Calculus (and various others) Everything after that has been abstractions, and when the abstractions are good, we call them paradigms. But it's all abstractions, and ultimately we are just writing instructions for a really dumb machine to compute data for us.

                > Why do I need to worry about small language specifics like brackets, terminators and so on when tools should be able to auto-complete them for me?

                Because the computer is something really simple, and the programming language is just a idea conduit from your mind. Those delimiters are as important as the language keywords, because they are part of the RULES. Auto-completing them will require more RULES and more delimiters.

                > You're editing a file (or parts of different files) and are focusing on say 5 methods that are interacting. I want to see all of them on the screen at the same time

                Vim and Emacs. Or Smalltalk IDEs like Pharo

                > Data conversion

                Vim and Emacs macros. But the truth is data encodings are very important, because for the computer, it's all bits, we assigned meanings to these bits and enacted RULES that describes how to manipulate them according to these meanings. Morphing from a set of RULES to another will require more RULES.

                I will urge you to try a live programming environment (SLIME for Common Lisp, Pharo for Smalltalk, The web inspector for Javascript (not great)). It feels like working on a boat in the middle of the sea instead of having it on land imagining what it feels to sail it.

                • adrian_b 3 hours ago

                  I agree about auto-complete, but already the editor Brief for MS-DOS, at least some 35 years ago, allowed you to define arbitrary templates for auto-completion.

                  For example, when writing a C program you could choose to have "f<TAB>" expanded to "for (=; <=; ++) {<LF><TAB>;<LF>}<LF>" or whatever indentation you preferred.

                  There are many modern programming editors that allow a similar customization, though unfortunately for many of them this requires a more complicated procedure than in the far past.

                  For any programming language with a verbose syntax, I consider necessary to take your time and define in your editor templates that would allow the fast writing of any program structure with a minimum number of key presses.

                  • bippihippi1 3 hours ago

                    I think the reason the text editor experience hasn't improved that much is because it's not often a bottleneck.

                    Thinking and learning are the hardest parts of programming. Typing faster doesn't help that much.

                    • skydhash 2 hours ago

                      And Emacs and VIM already have all the bits for improving your experience, but you have to integrate them yourselves. Or get an IDE that does it for the language you use. What you need to do is develop your own meta-language to shorten the time between idea and execution. Snippets, code generation, auto-completion, code analysis and navigation, all help.

                    • ants_everywhere 3 hours ago

                      I may not be understanding you correctly, so please let me know if I've gotten it wrong.

                      Some of the stuff you're talking about -- like brackets and terminators -- make explicit the syntax and greatly improve tooling. Usually editors have features that can add these in or you. But in some cases something is obvious to you, but is really one valid choice among many and the tooling can't read your mind without something like a design doc to guide its decisions.

                      For others -- like whether to use a HashSet or Dictionary or Tuple -- those have performance implications and it's not always clear in the abstract when to use one or the other. But for explicit languages like Java (and I would assume C#) you should be able to refactor a method call to take a different type. Then you just have to change one method and refactor all the calls to it.

                      I've been experimenting with the pro Gemini and ChatGPT o1. They're both really bad at coding Python and JavaScript. They write buggy code and will often introduce bugs when attempting to fix another. Both feel like they're rushing to answer instead of thinking about the requirements. I'd say we're still a bit away from having tools that can "read your mind" or understand what matters to you and what doesn't the way you'd (or we'd) like them to.

                      Potentially even worse: consider the data we're training on. These tools will be adopting the thought patterns of the average coder since most code is produced by average and below average coders. Even if we trained the tools only on the highest quality code, it's not clear that most coders would know how to prompt it correctly. So I think if you've been coding for 10-20 years chances are decent that you'll always be a little disappointed with the tooling if you're expecting instant wizardry.

                      That said, non-AI static analysis tools have been great for a while and will get even better. Adding AI to them will improve them further. So I think you can have a great experience if you're thinking of the tools as helping you be an artist rather than as an artist you can give a spec to and get back a decent result.

                      EDIT: It might be fun to experiment with telling the AI what you want your editor to do more of and asking the AI to help you configure it. There's a lot of non-AI tooling in plugins. Getting an LLM to help you pick the right plugins for your lifestyle may be the best bang for your buck.

                      • animal531 3 minutes ago

                        Yeah I've also been playing with ChatGPT etc. and sometimes they can produce great code, or at least get you up to speed a lot faster. As long as you ask them questions about well known problems they're great, but break down after that. But they're definitely going to play more and more of a role going forward.

                        What I really want to explore (and where I think there might be some big room for improvement) are around how we represent and visualize both code and data, as well as how we interact with it. Full visual programming has often been tried before and while it works fine for a while it begins to break down once projects become more complicated.

                        I instead want to explore some alternate text based options where we use the visual aspect as an assistant, whether by grouping or collating blocks that we're working on, changes that needs to be made and so forth.

                      • fhd2 2 hours ago

                        I think one of the main improvements we've - interestingly - been unable to widely adopt is an actual live programming environment. Smalltalk was this. Nowadays I mainly use Common Lisp for something reasonably close.

                        We're still mostly stuck in an edit->compile->test cycle. Stuff like TDD and debuggers help here, but considering the untapped potential for what programming environments could be, it seems to me like we're stuck on a local maximum.

                        Edit: Don't get me wrong, programming in Smalltalk didn't seem entirely pragmatic to me. Reproducibility becomes something you need to actively worry about, with popular tech stacks it's kinda built in. My point is the potential of such approaches, not the pragmatic viability of the implementations we've had so far.

                        • thoronton 3 hours ago

                          > You're editing a file (or parts of different files) and are focusing on say 5 methods that are interacting. I want to see all of them on the screen at the same time, without having to struggle to open and manage many windows with for example VS horizontal/vertical sliders

                          Regarding this, maybe haystack could be interesting for you

                          https://haystackeditor.com/

                          I haven't tried it myself, but I intend to.

                          • photonthug 2 hours ago

                            This looks awesome, any users out there that can opine?

                            Not sure this is the answer but for sure this is highlighting the right question. I’ve never been a teacher, but having been involved in mentoring newbies more often than I expected.. error traces with absolute filenames and terminals with Click-to-edit-file support are the smallest effort you can put in to get the biggest results (although this can also lead to confusion with virtual envs and such).

                            That’s just the beginning of the nav we really want though. The key point is all about focusing on “don’t make me mess with file systems” because the code already has many dimensions of inherent structure.

                            • animal531 2 hours ago

                              That's pretty neat, I'll definitely try it out!

                            • bombela 3 hours ago

                              Some of what you described, having 5 methods on screen, or finding all locations failing type checking, I have been using (neo)vim for successful over many years.

                              I load the output of the type checker (or compiler) into vim. I then have a list of locations to inspect. I can move between the locations. I can open multiple locations (same file or not) at once on the screen. Nowadays, Copilot assists in the refactoring besides the usual vim commands/regex/macro.

                              Opening 5 pane for 5 methods is similarly easy. I can also use a side panel to quickly view all methods and jump between them in addition to the traditional vim motions.

                              Language servers (LSP) of course makes the whole experience delightful. Jumping and navigating around the code etc.

                              All of that is keyboard driven, with many keyboard shortcuts personalized to my liking.

                              Here is an example of my workflow. I run the compile/typecheck command in a terminal, via a script that runs the command as soon as a source file has changed. It also saves the output into a file at a standard location. Saving in vim triggers the command to re-run. Then a key press reloads the output of the command to quickly jump around.

                              And navigating and modifying brackets is trivial in vim, especially with the right extension. Auto inserting brackets, I never found a plugin that I liked enough yet.

                              It's not all nor exactly what you asked for. But it's something.

                              • _heimdall 2 hours ago

                                When it comes to writing code being stuck in time, I'm expecting that LLMs replace programming languages rather than programmers. We aren't there yet and LLMs, or the next iteration of architecture, need to get better at logically working through and validating code, but I do think we'll get there.

                                When you think about it, its really pretty ridiculous that a programmer will ask an LLM to write code that the programmer can copy and ultimately compile into machine code for yet another computer to use. Cutting out the intermediary steps seems like a logical next step.

                                • 1718627440 3 hours ago

                                  > You're editing a file (or parts of different files) and are focusing on say 5 methods that are interacting. I want to see all of them on the screen at the same time, without having to struggle to open and manage many windows with for example VS horizontal/vertical sliders.

                                  I think that is, why editors like emacs and vi are really popular.

                                  - Data conversion. So I created a HashSet for something but realize I need to change it to a Dictionary or a Tuple, just make it happen. If it requires brainwork then show me all the places that requires supervision where I have to say ok or make an edit myself.

                                  How different would that be from changing the type and editing all the places the compiler complains about?

                                  • animal531 20 minutes ago

                                    >How different would that be from changing the type and editing all the places the compiler complains about?

                                    Currently in VS if let's say I change the Set to a Dictionary it will compile in the background and then complain about all the errors from where I can click on them to be taken there, and/or I would search on the variable name and find all the references and just scan through all of them to make changes as necessary.

                                    Some ideas there could be: a) We can use multiple windows (or lines in 1 window) to just quickly display all of the required changes directly on screen without me having to manually go from one to the next.

                                    b) Let's say we were doing a standard List.Add but now its a Weird.Blob (ie. a non-standard class with no built in conversion support). I can perform a replace all .Add with .Blob which text editors can already do, but what if we only applied it to this current set of windows that have opened up, so as to not break other things? Again you could have done that with a narrower replace, but this way might be easier or faster.

                                    c) In text editing you might have to replace a few lines several times, so you'd copy the new line or a segment of it, then replace all the parts of the old instances. What if we sorted all those opened windows so that the ones that are most similar are located next to each other, then if we change one we just drag it (or parts of it) to the other windows to make replacements. If they are exactly the same then provisionally change them automatically, the user just accepts the whole block of changes (as if they had done a search/replace for a specific line, or part of a line).

                                  • odieldomanie 2 hours ago

                                    The problem isn't the IDE, but that we are still using a programming language 24 years old.

                                    • EnigmaFlare 3 hours ago

                                      Visual Basic in VS has aggressive autocomplete and it gets pretty annoying. You often want to write things in a different order and end up having to delete the auto-inserted endif/quotes/brackets/variable names (if it's not yet declared, it changes it to become something else that is), etc.

                                      • remoquete 3 hours ago

                                        Oh, you still code in Visual Basic? Fascinating. May I ask what's the use case and how are you finding coding in VB these days?

                                      • brainzap 2 hours ago

                                        I feel the same, and I am happy that new programming languages like Go or Swift make small improvements.

                                        I still feel I need a different programming language to write business code.

                                        • jerf 2 hours ago

                                          "Why do I need to worry about small language specifics like brackets, terminators and so on when tools should be able to auto-complete them for me?"

                                          Actually, if you are using an IDE, there's probably a flag you can flip for that. It's a very common feature, to the point that I often find it in places I'm not expecting, like the web-based security training code platform my employer periodically pushes us through.

                                          I'm not a fan, but some of it is just that my habits haven't developed around it.

                                          There have been a number of tries at going even deeper, and trying to make it so the code is valid at all times. I suspect this one fails because we pass through more invalid states than people realize. For instance it's not uncommon for me to copy & paste some data from somewhere to embed into a program, and to massage it in my code editor until it is valid syntax, but it isn't "valid" until the very end. Smaller scale things like this happen all the time. It is more constricting than I think people generally realize to have to be valid every second.

                                          "You're editing a file (or parts of different files) and are focusing on say 5 methods that are interacting. I want to see all of them on the screen at the same time, without having to struggle to open and manage many windows with for example VS horizontal/vertical sliders."

                                          We've tried that already... and actually I'm with you, it's awesome. I suspect this is just because by the time you've got all the other IDE gizmos on the screen it's hard to do too much splitting. But my normal code setup is three emacs windows side-by-side on the screen (and, that is, windows, managed by the windowing system, not "frames" within emacs), each of which then can and often are further split once vertically. If I have to go all the way up to truly using 6 contexts at a time, something has probably gone wrong architecturally, but 2 is extremely common and bursts up to 3 and 4 a daily occurrence.

                                          Watching some people recently trying to get into a largish code base, and watching them interact with it basically through a single window and at times not even with an IDE, really makes me think one of the larger problems is people learning how to "turn the lights on" in a code base. It isn't even a matter of implementing features at this point, honestly almost any environment already has a ton. You need to learn to use them.

                                          "Data conversion. So I created a HashSet for something but realize I need to change it to a Dictionary or a Tuple, just make it happen."

                                          We tried that already... and it comes with some substantial costs you may not realize.

                                          First there's the obvious performance one. Make it easy to auto-convert them back and forth without any syntax fuss and you'll end up people writing loops in which the 1,000,000-million element hash table is converted both back and forth between a hash table and a tuple list in a loop, once per element, and you end up with the sort of bloated programs we all like to complain about. (Indeed, this sort of thing is one of the root causes, though far from the only one.)

                                          The more subtle one is that automatic coercion, of which this is an example, is just generally a bad idea. The programmer ends up with a too-fuzzy idea of what is going on, and that fuzziness manifests not just in the aforementioned performance issue, but also, bugs, when it turns out that the properties of various structures being autoconverted back and forth are actually important to the code. The most common example which is increasingly widely regarded as a bad idea is "falsiness", where the language tries really hard to have a concept of true or false for all sorts of data structures, but the bugs that emerge from empty strings being read as false unexpectedly and such make this generally not worth it. In the case you cite, the data structures are not the same; they differ substantially in what they do with multiple values for a given key, and how order-sensitive they are, and in the world of programming, these details all matter. Especially because they end up being used to construct security systems.

                                          It is hard to see the general sweep of programming language development, but in general at the moment I think languages are headed away from auto-conversion. What you can see is languages and libraries developing better "interface"-like abilities, where maybe they can declare that they just need this or that bit, and then you can pass multiple different structures in. See for instance __getitem__ in Python. This is a much better approach; there's still some fuzziness cost but the offsetting benefits are much stronger so it's a much better trade.

                                          • animal531 42 minutes ago

                                            Some good feedback here and in the thread overall.

                                            I also use a 3-way horizontal split these days for editing, I've found that the wider our screens get the less I use the edges. So now often I'll keep the left focused on the headers to variable definition, the middle for the main editor and the right for methods where the middle is calling or being called by something.

                                            In Visual Studio you don't have to dock windows, but the current generation of floating window doesn't really conform to what I want. Someone else mentioned Haystack which I haven't seen before: https://haystackeditor.com/

                                            I quite like the layout of Haystack, although I don't think one wants to take it too far such that it begins to resemble visual scripting. I think a block based approach where you have different blocks for the different types such as classes, variables and code might be worth exploring.

                                            I'll definitely post back sometime with feedback on whether I've come up with anything interesting.

                                            • jerf 6 minutes ago

                                              I hope you do. I know it's easy to just crap on someone's ideas, but I'm really trying not to do that. I think it's a great idea to learn from what came before, because if anything's going to succeed it is almost certainly going to be at least a little different than what someone else tried. Sometimes it can be the smallest difference that decides the matter. I wish you the best of luck in your explorations.

                                          • konschubert 3 hours ago

                                            Have you tried github copilot?

                                            It's not doing multi-file editing yet, but once it does, I think it's pretty much what you are looking for.

                                            • binary132 3 hours ago

                                              Actually it has gotten worse because our software abstractions have become a lot more complex.

                                              • AnimalMuppet 3 hours ago

                                                About the first item on your wishlist: If by "brackets" you mean {} (in C-like languages), there are IDEs that can be configured to create pairs of them every time you hit return after an expression that can take them. The downside (if you care) is that, if you wanted to write an if, while, or for with only one line, and therefore no scope delimiters, it will force you to create the scope anyway. You may not care.

                                                If by "brackets", you mean [], to access an element of an array or vector or map or whatever, yes, it could do that as soon as you gave it the name of an array or vector or map or whatever. But then if you wanted to deal with the array or vector or map as a whole (which you want to do sometimes), the brackets have to go. I would estimate that 30% of the time I want to deal with the array as a whole, so such a feature would be annoying and in my way 1/3 of the time.

                                                Terminators are a win more of the time. But when they're not, I meant to be continuing one line of code across two lines of file. If it auto-added a terminator (semicolon, say) at the end of the first line as it opened the second, I might not even notice until compile time. That would be highly annoying.

                                                Public and private I don't want determined by a tool auto-determining the "most efficient" set. I want them determined by my sense of what the class is, and therefore what the public interface should be. Some of the things that are private are less efficient, but are private because they're implementation details and I don't want callers able to fiddle with them.

                                                So, that's my whiny personal take on some things on your list. Maybe I've adapted myself to the existing tools. But I personally think that many of your items, if you implement them, you will find that you don't really like how they work out.

                                                • animal531 38 minutes ago

                                                  Yeah some of my points are really space dependent. For example I'm working on a solo game project, so my comment on the public/private etc. modifiers is really aimed at that where nothing will ever be exposed and the modifiers are pretty much irrelevant.

                                                  >So, that's my whiny personal take on some things on your list. Maybe I've adapted myself to the existing tools. But I personally think that many of your items, if you implement them, you will find that you don't really like how they work out.

                                                  You could very well be 100% correct there. As developers we really become used to our tools and its quite hard to adapt to new ways of doing things. But I figure its worth a shot, at the worst I'll have learned a few things along the way.

                                              • jeroen 3 hours ago

                                                As Spolsky said a long time ago:

                                                > It’s harder to read code than to write it.

                                                • auggierose 4 hours ago

                                                  A nice read, but I think there is a contradiction here that needs to be cleared up:

                                                  1) On one hand, the author says that humans learn from examples, not core concepts.

                                                  2) On the other hand, the author emphasises the importance of reducing "conceptual overload", by reducing the number of concepts while maintaining their expressiveness.

                                                  So it is not that core concepts are not important for learning. Rather, it is essential to have a set of well-defined and well-documented core concepts which cover what the system can do. But of course, you also need plenty of insightful examples, and of course a "Getting Started" guide should start with examples, not core concepts. But if the core concepts are simple and few enough to fit into a "Getting Started", that's a win.

                                                  • kalaksi 3 hours ago

                                                    I didn't find it contradictory. The first one is about how to start learning about something more easily and the second one about how to organize it all so that it's easier to use and understand as a whole. That may also help with getting started too.

                                                    I personally agree that examples are a very efficient way to get started and you can learn the details incrementally in a top-down fashion. Some text books during my studies took the bottom-up approach (even explicitly mentioned it) and I never quite liked it.

                                                    If the core concepts are simple and not too many, then it probably doesn't matter that much. The point is to get started easily.

                                                    • auggierose 3 hours ago

                                                      There is even a headline saying "Getting started is the product".

                                                      No, it is not. If your product doesn't have nice core concepts, then I don't even want to get started with it.

                                                      Top-down is fine, as long as there is an actual bottom of core concepts.

                                                      • ulbu an hour ago

                                                        again, not contradictory. have good core concepts, combine with good entry corridors. good concept with entry blocked by obtusity and esoterics is not a product ready for consumption.

                                                        i didn’t see the authors suggest that good concepts are unimportant.

                                                  • mgaunard 3 hours ago

                                                    If humans understand how computers work, then you just have to write code for computers and can ignore the human element.

                                                    Unfortunately the last few decades we decided that software engineers don't need to know how computers work anymore.

                                                    • inglor_cz 3 hours ago

                                                      Obfuscated C contest seems to be challenging your view. Or Brainfuck.

                                                      Intentional coding-trolling aside, if whatever is happening in the head of the original developer is muddled, the resulting code is likely to be confusing even for people who know computers from the inside out.

                                                    • k2so 3 hours ago

                                                      Easier to use libraries over highly complicated (supposedly performant) have a significant advantage in driving more adoption.

                                                      Recently I was trying to generate text embeddings from a huggingface model. Nvidia triton and text-embedding-inference (built by huggingface) were my two options.

                                                      > why large companies are generally incapable of delivering great developer experience. I wanted to curl up and cry while trying to make nvidia-triton spit out embeddings . The error messages are cryptic and you need to have jedi like intuition to get it to work. I finally managed to get it work after like 2 days of wrangling with the extremely verbose and long-winded documentation (thanks in part to claude, helped me understand with better examples)

                                                      Triton's documentation starts off with core-principles and throughout the entire documentation, they have hyper links to other badly written documentation to ensure you know the core concepts. The only reason I had endured this was because of the supposed performance gains triton promised but underdelivered (this highly likely being I had missed some config/core-concept and did get all the juice)

                                                      On the other hand, text-embedding-inference has a two line front and centre command to pull the docker image and get running. The only delay was due to my internet speed before it started serving the embeddings. Then deploying this on our k8s infra was a breeze, minor modifications to the dockerfile and we are running. And on top, it's more performant than triton!

                                                      • ants_everywhere 2 hours ago

                                                        My approach to dealing with lots of concepts is pretty much stolen from how babies learn language.

                                                        Grownups talk around non-verbal babies as if they're not there. We refer to all the objects in the room (or anywhere else) whether the baby understands them or not. "How was your day at work?" "Oh it was okay, but traffic was bad so I didn't have time to get my usual coffee." Babies don't understand what traffic or coffee is, and they don't have to. They still eventually learn the language and really focus on the things that matter to them.

                                                        At some point, a lot of us try to simplify by reducing the number of concepts we're exposed to, and we try to feel like we understand those fewer concepts. I've switched my approach to just being immersed in the way experts talk about the field, and just getting used to used to not really knowing what most things mean. It turns out you get a ton of information this way. Not only do you learn the vocabulary before you need it (reducing the time required later when you eventually need it) but also you pick up a sense of which things are fundamental (they come up a lot in conversation) and which things are extraneous detail (they're barely mentioned or only mentioned when something goes wrong).

                                                        • WillAdams an hour ago

                                                          Well, there is at least one effort at a solution:

                                                          http://literateprogramming.com/

                                                          and I've found that John Ousterhout's recent book, _A Philosophy of Software Design_ is one of the most notable programming books of the past decade and speaks to many of these difficulties so well that I added it my effort at a list of (mostly) Literate Programming books:

                                                          https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/21394355-william-adams...

                                                          The other issue here is the still unanswered question:

                                                          >What does an algorithm look like?

                                                          and by extension, the further question of:

                                                          How does one manage a visual representation of a program when it gets beyond the size of one screen/window, or a page in a book, or for the largest ones, a poster?

                                                          With a bit of help of tex.stackexchange.com I was able to put together a Literate Programming system which allows me to use (La)TeX w/o the comment character which docstrip mandates:

                                                          https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/literati...

                                                          (it's a little clunky, since that file has to be customized for the files in a given project)

                                                          but it allowed me to switch from having three files open in three different OpenPythonSCAD windows to a single .text file which makes a .pdf: https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/gcodepre... which has a ToC, and multiple indices all nicely hyperlinked, and which makes a search/review of the code into a vertical scroll.

                                                          That said, I sympathize w/ the author quite a bit, and often work up snippets of code using either Blockly or BlockSCAD3D: https://www.blockscad3d.com/editor/ or https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor

                                                          https://raw.githubusercontent.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/mai...

                                                          • JimDabell 3 hours ago

                                                            On a side note, I have wondered if LLMs work more effectively with code that is well-structured and easy for humans to read than they do with spaghetti. Has anybody researched this?

                                                            • ForOldHack an hour ago

                                                              Sacrafice nothing for clarity.

                                                              • WesSouza 4 hours ago

                                                                I thought this was going to be about genetics or something.

                                                                • mikkom 4 hours ago

                                                                  Yeah bro but I read in twitter that I can just write "Code a health care app make it very profitable!" to AI and be billionaire!