• notamy 2 hours ago

    The question that immediately comes to mind is:

    Suppose that for one reason or another, I want to migrate off of the SI platform. Am I able to get any reusable IAC out in some form? Does SI provide any ways to migrate out of the platform? Or do I just have to rebuild all my infrastructure from scratch outside of SI?

    • holoway an hour ago

      You can export your workspace, and import it into another version of SI. But we aren't producing IaC under the hood - we have a high fidelity modeling layer, and then we allow you to program those models directly.

      But if you move off of System Initiative, we don't impact your resources at all. You can just stop using it.

      • holoway an hour ago

        Think of it this way - if you want to "move off of terraform", you're existing IaC isn't useful either (because you need Terraform/OpenTofu to run it). SI is the same.

        • notamy 3 minutes ago

          The main reason I ask is because I use a competitor? of yours currently, and one of the big draws of it is "if we ever go out of business, or if you're dissatisfied with the product we offer, or ..., you can just take all your Terraform and keep using it. You aren't locked in to the platform."

    • orf 23 minutes ago

      Not to be too negative, but:

      > When modeling AWS IAM policy in System Initiative, we realized that AWS provides a sophisticated Policy Simulator. So we modeled it, connected our IAM Policies and resources to it, and had a new, real time interface to test the validity of IAM policy. It took less than an hour from start to finish.

      Clicking the link takes you to the docs on policy simulator, which seems to show it’s quite limited and isn’t representative of actual, deployed IAM rules:

      > Important:

      > The policy simulator results can differ from your live AWS environment. We recommend that you check your policies against your live AWS environment after testing using the policy simulator to confirm that you have the desired results.

      https://docs.aws.amazon.com/IAM/latest/UserGuide/access_poli...

      • holoway 16 minutes ago

        It's actually pretty good - usually the reason it's not accurate is because enough data isn't being fed to the simulator. That's one of the things that was great about doing it in SI - it wasn't hard to get the data in to the simulator.

        But if I was AWS, I would also say you should check your IAM against the real world, because if you don't, it's pretty easy to wreck you environment. ;)

      • eltondegeneres 2 hours ago

        How do you control/diff System Initiative resource changes with git? I'm not a fan of GUIs for infrastructure stuff since it's usually harder to review, automate, and roll back to a version other than N-1.

        • holoway an hour ago

          You don't, because we built the functionality in to the data model - you can review changes (in multiplayer!) and automate things directly in the application. Usually when we're talking infrastructure code, you don't really roll back to an N-1 version. In SI, you would make the changes you want in a change set, it would tell you if it looks like your change would work, and then you would apply the change set to run the actions needed.

          • eltondegeneres an hour ago

            Can you review the changes async or over email?

            • holoway an hour ago

              You can show up whenever you want to! Today it happens in the UI, but we could certainly send you a diff in your email at some point. :)

        • ZeroCool2u 34 minutes ago

          If I have existing infrastructure, are you able to generate a diagram/model of the current state given sufficient permissions?

          • holoway 29 minutes ago

            This is a great question. Eventually, yes. In an earlier prototype of SI, we actually had this feature, and it was pretty dope. We removed it as we made things much more programmable, but it's high on the road map to bring back. The first will be an `import` function that just builds an individual component from a resource, followed by the full discovery feature.

          • holoway 2 hours ago

            Hello! Adam from System Initiative here. Happy to answer any questions. :)

            • mst 10 minutes ago

              I can see why you went full GUI to begin with now.

              The example component code reminds me a lot of mobx-state-tree (you have no idea how much cog. diss. I get reading the docs for that thing given they acronym the name everywhere ;) though I find myself much preferring the API shape of mobx-keystone at this point.

              (I've been experimenting a lot with reactive graphs of late though while it seemed an obvious thing to try at some point I haven't attempted to wire it up to systems automation yet; shall have to do my usual cover-to-cover documentation read on your site and then hopefully I'll be in touch with a baseline to actually chat about that part ;)

              • epgui an hour ago

                First, I have to say this looks awesome. I am in awe at the level of effort I imagine is required to build and maintain something like this.

                That being said, I find the rationale a little bit confusing. I rather love IaC, and consider a GUI or no-code/low-code tool to be more of a dead end (not for any fundamental reason, but for more practical reasons) than plain text. I do really appreciate the problems solved by the simulation approach, but to me these two things are orthogonal. I feel like you could have a product that functionally does what your product does, but with a plain text interface. I appreciate that you're really going for something different here, but I am sure I am not the only person who feels this way.

                • holoway an hour ago

                  I don't think you're alone, and to be honest, I'm as suprised as anyone that it turned out to be better. We built a lot of different implementations on the way here, and all of the initial versions started with code and plain text as the interface. But it's very hard (I think impossible) to change the user experience when you do that, because the data gets locked up in code - there isn't a good way to "see" what the real world is like, or what your proposed changes would do.

                  But you're not alone in thinking this, and I completely understand why you would. The history of things that look like this in this space is.. not great. :)

                  • epgui 16 minutes ago

                    > the data gets locked up in code

                    I'm really not sure that this is a bad thing.

                    > there isn't a good way to "see" what the real world is like

                    If the IaC system had the same under-the-hood functionality as System Initiative, what's to stop someone from also building a GUI visualization of the IaC-code?

                • rmvt 2 hours ago

                  maybe it's because i'm not in the devops space but i'm 4 paragraphs in and i still don't know what this is about?

                  • holoway 2 hours ago

                    Perhaps https://systeminit.com would make more sense. :)

                    • losteric an hour ago

                      I read through the blog post and entry page twice each - yeah still confused. The pitch reads like an engineer celebrating their implementation.

                      What I took away is: it’s a collaborative IDE for infrastructure? with some nifty simulators to catch issues earlier, and “somehow” changes are managed outside the popular git+pipelines workflows?

                      There are elements of this that I like (faster validations that CDK deployments ). Those aspects are bundled with confusing, either unnecessary or poorly communicated, other elements. “Replacement for IaC” - is there a new paradigm? Or is IaC just now a graph in this local application? Because you tout being able to program new service models, so the code isn’t gone

                      • cjm42 an hour ago

                        Not to me. It says "System Initiative is an Intuitive, Powerful, and Collaborative replacement for Infrastructure as Code" but I still don't understand what it does or why I would want to use it.

                    • pnathan 23 minutes ago

                      So, my hot take on this is that it's an advanced GUI for AWS with change management built in.

                      1. Is that a good summary? 2. Why would I pick this?

                      I know you LOVE it, it's your baby. But why should I love it? :-)

                      • holoway 3 minutes ago

                        It's not a bad summary, but it is a shallow one. :)

                        You should love it because it's a more intuitive and more powerful way to build this kind of infrastructure automation. What's happening under the hood isn't just infrastructure as code with a UI - it's a full reactive model of how things work. That's what makes the UI possible, but it's also what brings about so much power - the code that drives those models is also fully exposed and versioned.

                        So when you have something like a policy to write, you think about what resources you need, use them as inputs to the function, and then store the results. Check out what an early user had to say about it: https://matthewsanabria.dev/posts/take-the-system-initiative...

                        We'll find out if you love it or not. :)

                      • hdjjhhvvhga an hour ago

                        I'm not a Tik-Tok child and have an attention span long enough to focus on coding longer pieces. However, I shouldn't be required to read all this wall of text to understand what this product is about. Could you summarize it in 4 sentences: what it is and why I should use it (instead of X or Y)?

                        • mst 14 minutes ago

                          "Imagine if you took IaC, bolted a slick Native Objects style frontend onto it, made it collaboratively editable and integrated version control and - perhaps most importantly[1] - a high fidelity preview simulator so you could look at the total expected results of your configuration changes without having to wait for AWS/etc. to finish catching up."

                          [1] To me at least.

                          • nickstinemates an hour ago

                            How about 1 sentence? "System Initiative is an Intuitive, Powerful, and Collaborative replacement for Infrastructure as Code" from https://systeminit.com

                            • mst 8 minutes ago

                              That sentence reads to me as "the product has been described using marketing."

                              (I don't have a better one sentence tagline as such, mind, but honestly if I'd only read that I'd never have bothered to look - see my sibling comment for an attempt at an actual high level description ... especially since I probably got something wrong you'll need to correct ;)

                        • solatic 2 hours ago

                          DOA at my current employer because of a lack of support for other clouds (GCP and Azure). I'm sure improved API support is in the pipeline though, very psyched to see SI grow!

                          • holoway an hour ago

                            It absolutely is. We're adding more resources all the time, we hang out in Discord and build the things folks need most. We're working on GCP now.

                          • BarryMilo 2 hours ago

                            Looking at the website, this is fully open source. Nice! Looking forward to trying it out.

                            • nickstinemates 2 hours ago

                              Excited to launch this! All of our early users feedback has been consistent: going back to Terraform after using System Initiative would be terrible.

                              We're here if you have any questions.

                              • johnrwatson 2 hours ago

                                I'm privileged to have had the opportunity to help the team build the Production SI SaaS platform, leveraging SI itself to create all the infrastructure. I'd be happy to chat with anyone interested in how it works and share findings.

                              • andrewstuart 42 minutes ago

                                Maybe it could be called System-I.

                                • holoway 38 minutes ago

                                  I think all great companies have names that are also great band names. System Initiative is a better band name than System-I. :)

                                  • sntxrr 20 minutes ago

                                    SI house band when? :D

                                    • holoway 17 minutes ago

                                      Just as soon as enough people use SI that we can have a conference.