My kids are in middle and high school, and they all have school-issued 13 in chromebooks. None of them have print text books, they are all online. I HATE studying with them, because of this. It is a nightmare to try to read a physics or math textbook; there is so much space taken by chrome, the book UI, etc, and the book usually displays full screen. Or, you zoom in, you can see 1 paragraph and half a figure, and can't turn the page. Then, you switch tabs back to your homework, also digital, and can't view the book. God forbid I show them how to tile the windows side by side, but even if you did, the book would be even smaller, and the hw questions run off the side and don't wrap. It is unbearable. I resort to digging out my 20+ year old college engineering and math textbooks for physical references. The kids don't seem to mind it too much, but it is all they have ever known.
One of my children is a maths undergrad (UK) and all their texts are on-line too. He's in a minority in that he uses the library and borrows books. Many of his cohort don't.
On one hand, I remember how costly textbooks were and I'm glad he doesn't have that. But I still have some of my student textbooks and its interesting to flip through them and see old margin notes, and consider what has and hasn't changed over thirty years.
You describe cheaping out for vastly inferior solution compared to what we had for centuries. Part of studying was going quickly back, switching between X pages before and here, highlighting quickly, making quick notes on the side and so on.
Every one of us has slightly different memorization / comprehension techniques to grok foreign text and concepts within, and this crappy cheap new tech diminishes most of them. For quick overview why not, but for deeper studies this is bad, very bad.
Just like I hated when Tesla started putting some crappy tablet instead of physical knobs, for vastly inferior driver experience. But masses clearly think differently and even here on HN many celebrated is as some sort of progress, so manufacturers aligned and are happy to save on better quality controls to keep their margins fat and juicy. Who cares about some focus or safety or long term reliability studies, look at that shiny glaring screen!
> Part of studying was going quickly back, switching between X pages before and here, highlighting quickly, making quick notes on the side and so on.
Whatever the other trade-offs, you can do all that even more easily with a good PDF application.
You also can open multiple instances of the same book, to have multiple pages open simultaneously.
In a pdf book, what I am really missing is the spacial position of a piece of knowledge. Particularly for reference books (I am an engineer, I still have a large amount of reference books) I look up on a regular basis, I know/remember where I need to search without the need to express it in words to run a search through a 1000+ page book.
But, maybe I am just an old guy and this is just because I learnt this way.
Maybe the new generation is learning directly "digital" with other knowledge access mechanisms. For example, I intuitively store a "position" in the book, maybe they intuitively remember a "keyword" to search for in the book.
As another poster said, PDF files have pages.
There are good PDF viewers (e.g. MuPDF), where you need only a minimum of movements for going to a page, e.g. pressing "719g" in order to go to page 719.
Even when a PDF file does not have bookmarks and even when I do not remember the exact page where something is located, I can still know for instance that what I am looking for is about 20% before the end of the book, so if the book has 1400 pages I go quickly to page 1120 and I search around.
With a good PDF viewer I can navigate through a book much faster than I can turn the pages in a physical book.
Nevertheless, one needs to have a big high-resolution monitor in order to come close to the quality of a printed book. The current 4k monitors are a huge progress over the older 1080p or 1440p monitors, but their resolution is still insufficient to match that required to render correctly some of the typefaces that were popular for high-quality printing (but which have been rarely used after the transition to digital typefaces, being replaced by others more tolerant to low-resolution rendering).
Because I read a lot of books, there are almost 10 years since I have last used a display with a resolution less than 4k and I have always used them only at their native resolution. I cannot understand why some people choose to use various scaling methods to make the text big enough (but ugly), instead of doing the right thing, i.e. the rendering of all typefaces at the maximum available resolution, but choosing their dimension in points big enough for comfortable reading (after setting the monitor dots-per-inch value to the true value for the connected monitor).
I agree with your points about PDFs. But what about reflowable formats? The only constant is the rough percentage of where the information might lie. This is a sorry second to a PDF/printed text that also maintains the layout.
Reflowable formats like HTML are a regression over traditional books and I consider them as unsuitable for any document longer than a few pages.
I really hate those who provide some technical documentation in HTML format, without offering a PDF alternative, or at least some other worse format, like EPUB, but which still allows a book-like navigation.
Even on the small display of my phone I still prefer to read books in PDF format, if the reader provides a good UI for pan and zoom, than to read reflowable HTML documents, because with the latter the unpredictability of the layout messes with my ability to remember the location of the information of interest, which is essential when I frequently have to navigate through very long documents.
PDFs have pages, and I usually find that I remember about which page something is on in a PDF I am reffering to as I do when it is printed or in a book. I definitely think there is lots of oppurtunity to improve the UX, but there a a lot of advantages to electronic presentation.
This is exactly the reason I dislike reflowable formats. Younger people don’t seem to appreciate the benefits of the spatial position of information within a PDF/printed text. As an undergrad, by the time I finished a textbook chapter, I would have both the information and the general spatial layout of the text committed to memory. The latter greatly helped recall and cognitive integration. 30 years later, I can still pick up my undergrad textbook, dimly recall where the information is located, and quickly get back up to speed. The human brain has a powerful spatial ‘muscle memory’ for recalling information. This is lost when dealing with .mobi and .epub formats.
But none of that mitigates the problem of screen real estate. Maybe I'm just an old but I like to see more of the page.
The Chromebooks, do they have a jack for a second monitor? A good sized monitor could take care of a lot of these problems. Even better would be if they can also put books, pdfs etc. on an iPad for reading.
And the magic of Ctrl+F, highlights, and comments.
> Just like I hated when Tesla started putting some crappy tablet instead of physical knobs, for vastly inferior driver experience. But masses clearly think differently
Do they? Why are physical controls back?
It seems like car manufacturers just mindlessly jumped on what they thought was a fad, without ever bothering to test out their own cars.
I think you are right, together with the opportunities for cost-saving and cheaply-implemented upselling.
And it is not as if physical controls are ipso facto better. I have driven a number of cars with physical controls that are hard to find and distinguish between, and which function modally.
To the great of my then teachers, I used to scribble and write equations on my table while studying. I had paper, but for some reason I just loved doing math directly on the table.
I was told off for it often, but I don't think I would have liked math as much as I did if I didn't have that option.
I recently took a CS101 class that used ZyBooks for the textbook and absolutely hated it for this very reason [1].
The "reading" was basically a bunch of mandatory checkbox exercises that turn into a slog through a bunch of slow-loading prompts that were just "Click Next" to receive confirmation that I had read the info in the prompts.
Absolutely miserable experience all around.
I have this problem right since i got my first tab during ny bachelors. Given how expensive books are, I have had temptation to just buy 3-4 10inch kindles and wing it. Also, it's very important that kids use their hands to write even if they don't actually turn in handwritten work. The act of even just doodling while thinking has been shown to be extremely beneficial
Just out of curiosity, have you heard of the Remarkable Paper Pro? I just got one and it's decent at the writing experience. Probably even good. But currently it's basically only for writing, you can export PDF or png to an email or their cloud. You can write on imported pdfs as well.
You'd have to be pretty well off to afford it as a student.
I'd consider just using the campus printer to print whatever material you need. Or borrow the books from the library.
I know; I was fortunate as a student to have a Gateway convertible(yay complicated hinge mechanism) laptop with a 4 year warranty. It was okay with notes (I did really love OneNote but portability of those notes was not good), and right before the end of the warranty period the hinge failed so they replaced it entirely. It was actually more expensive than the rm paper pro and I would relish the opportunity to have it back then. Granted, it was also a full Windows laptop too, which the paper pro is decidedly not.
Glad to know I am not the only parent who feels this way.
On a personal note, I am one of those people who highlights sections of text books using different coloured markers and scribbled notes on the margins. During my final exam time, my revision of materials was very efficient. I am not sure how to teach my kids these skills.
You can try to teach them to use a good pdf reader. At work there are a lot of Google doc to review. I always convert them to PDF so that I can have private annotations, named bookmarks and highlights of different colors (I can even diff between two versions). This way I am building a collection of PDF I can locally search.
On this topic, computers are great to make flashcards. Instead of the paragrahed notes, when learning material, I am taking note in the form of short Q&A using markdown flashcards. Works great for me. Easy to review efficiently, easy to extend.
This said, I am not sure this is adapted to kids. Hope you share your skills to your kids.
> use a good pdf reader.. markdown flash cards
Ever had the experience that your favorite shoes or watch is discontinued by the manufacturer? It sucks because you’re back on the consumer treadmill again, wasting time and money on things that aren’t as good and struggling with an annoying distraction that previously did not exist while you try to find something that works for you again.
Software churn is just like this, only much worse. It should/could have been different, but it’s not.
So no, I don’t really think we should take away all books, buttons, and knobs that offer a reasonably consistent user experience and replace everything we can with software and tablets. At least not until software learns to behave. Reading is as basic as tying your shoes. Would you really want SV PMs in charge of revolutionizing the shoe-tying experience every quarter, or dropping updates on you that change the place you’ve always stored your shoes?
Exactly.
It was perfectly fine, I loved it. It worked very well.
They took it away, now I have to re-learn how to do it what I already knew with somethibg that I also have to pay for.
Sometimes we should just keep things as they are and stop looking for the next thing.
What's your good pdf reader of choice? And do you use any software to organize your collection, or just the filesystem?
Not the same person but I would suggest using zotero for this purpose. This is one of the best use case of zotero (try zotero 7 beta). Combined with its iPad app you will find it can tick all your requirements.
Massive +1 to Zotero. And 7 is out of beta now!
I recently went back to school and started using Zotero again. Reading and annotating books and papers on iPad, and then having access to all of my notes when writing on desktop is such a simple but amazing feature.
Books are better in book form for one simple reason: Spatiality and tactility. Skimming, skipping pages, marking and jumping between different parts of the book. These actions are all extremely easy, intuitive and convenient with a paper book. There's no replacement for digital books. Using a mouse means you're no longer interacting directly with the medium and even if you do use a touchscreen, digital books aren't designed to be used or interacted with in any sane way.
Paper books have excellent UI, far better than ebooks in most respects. I wish ebooks at least came close to matching them, because the damn things are bulky and heavy.
Anyone here know how it is in the UK? My kid will be starting school soon, and this terrifies me.
There have been reports on the BBC about some schools going completely screen-free, occasionally from parents' pressure. Good luck!
This study [Mangen, Walgermo and Brønnick (2012)] should be replicated with adult subjects and N=500 instead of just N=72 kids from a single class.
In Sweden, based on similar results sub-notebooks and tables that were only recently introduced were removed again. I respect the Swedish for reacting on the new evidence instead of being in denial that the purchase of so much hardware was a mistake.
I write, read, and review scientific papers throughout the year, and most of the time, I will print them out (sometimes over one hundred pages for a single conference - e.g. 10 papers a 10 pages). The clearest benefit is reading mathematical formulae on paper vs screen, from my subjective experience, but also the ability to scribble notes, turn back the page to re-read something to double-check without much effort.
As much as I like computers, paper is the most ingenious medium ever invented by humankind, and the second most durable w.r.t. long-term preservation of the written word (after parchment).
I agree that for the act of learning, the tactility of paper is a huge benefit. But for preserving and recalling notes and highlights, electronic wins. I can have hundreds of books or papers on whichever device I'm on and look up notes and annotations I've made over several years.
I've tried figuring out how to get the best of both worlds, but maybe you really just need to decide which trade-off to go with.
> the ability to scribble notes, turn back the page to re-read something to double-check without much effort.
I agree 100%. The simple act of turning back the page/pages is so fast and efficient. My brain seems to even remember where on the page the info I want is. So much more is visible in a single 'eye-shot'. I don't get that same mental experience with e-docs - not sure why. I did grow up with paper so there is a bias.
I had not thought about the paging-back issue until you mentioned it, but I recognize in myself what you have said about it. Our brains and sensorimotor systems are developed for direct interaction with the physical world, not through proxies (though we can get pretty good with decent proxies through practice.)
On the other hand, being able to search is invaluable, as is the ability to have the footnote pages open in a separate window, if the software does not provide a better option. Finally, I can't imagine a good interface that is not pencil-like for sketching diagrams.
I agree. For novels, digital works well—I have hundreds of books on my Kindle. But recently, while studying a math book, I bought the paperback for exactly the reason you mentioned.
> paper is the most ingenious medium ever invented by humankind, and the second most durable w.r.t. long-term preservation of the written word (after parchment).
And clay tablets.
Plausible result, but considering that this HN post is appearing on the same day as one of the top posts is about scientific fraud… let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
I say it all the time: provocative experimental results should be considered fraudulent until the raw data is shared, and then spurious until replicated.
I believe digital reading could be more benifitial if better media were applied. This 2012 study invited "72 tenth graders read texts as PDF on a computer screen", which is simply bad.
For example, people spent hours exploring wikipedia, this could never be done with physical paper. I often find myself looking for Ctrl+F button holding a book. Interactive textbooks were posted on HN many times, like you can alter a numerical input and see graphs chaning in real time. This helps a lot for kids with limited imagination.
These days I can't live without an AI assistant. While reading, it's just so convenient just to ask. The AI might be wrong from time to time, so keep a critical mind, the AI is immensely helpful for foreign-language materials and complex acedemical papers.
In somewhat delicious irony, I find this PDF almost unreadable on my iPhone screen due to the tiny font.
Hah: “The students were randomized into two groups, where the first group read two texts (1400–2000 words) in print, and the other group read the same texts as PDF on a computer screen.”
Maybe they should try the experiment again using a non-hostile format for presenting information on a computer.
(In case anyone else was wondering about resolution, this 2012 study used 15” LCDs at 1280x1024 running Windows XP - so definitely not retina.)
It’s double ironic because it’s not very readable on paper either! The line length is way too long. If it were in HTML you could fix that.
I'm a book person through and through. Crafting Interpreters is an example of how a textbook can be when someone really puts the effort in, I know there's also a free PDF version but the paper book is well worth the price.
E-readers like the remarkable are getting closer, but that one's banned by some of our clients until they hire someone who understands security.
Maybe add “2012” to the title as that is when the study was done.
My kids’ tomes don’t even have vellum! They use paper! Next they’ll be printing them with moveable type instead of illuminating them.
Kids today!
I can read something on screen ten times and not have it make any impression. Paper is much better for me personally.
Maybe somewhat related but I also find that if I'm taking notes, I retain things much better if I handwrite them. Often I don't even need to refer to my handwritten notes because I can remember them, which is almost never the case with typed notes.
And interestingly, it's specifically handwritten notes in pen. When I use a pencil it's much more like just typing them out.
Yes, this is me as well. Reading on paper is so much easier and faster for me, and my reading comprehension is substantially higher as compared to reading on a screen. Even an e-paper screen.
I had long thought that this is because I'm old enough that for a huge portion of my life, most of my reading was on paper and people a generation or two younger than my wouldn't see the same disparity. This paper, however, seems to indicate that this may not be the whole story.
I find reading texts on a 13 inch (3200x1800, 276 ppi) laptop easier to remember than on a 42 inch (3840x2160, 104 ppi) monitor. Reading takes more effort as text isn't as clear on the big screen.
Been waiting for 42 inch 8k monitors since 2017. There's a 55 inch IPS on the horizon (ASRock PG558KF).
Does anyone have experience reading text on 8K VA panels like Samsung QN700B?
27 inch 4K screen is a reasonable compromise, I find (163 ppi). Display scaling is a must, but same on laptop display. I guess a larger screen is like having more pages on your desk at once.
The big question is, e-ink screens, how are they?
Search the study for "ink," this is discussed briefly. They produce less visual fatigue than regular screens because they reflect ambient light rather than relying entirely on being backlit.
In terms of comprehension the hierarchy probably goes paper > e-ink > all other screens. Hard to quantify the gap between each.
I think this is a big point to consider: we've known for a long time that taking notes increases recall to a degree that likely dwarfs this screen vs paper thing. There are studies where it's like a 7-8x improvement in recall which is tied to comprehension.
So if you want to actually remember and learn from stuff, definitely take notes. Preferably handwritten ones. Preferably do it all on paper. But the key is really to just be taking notes.
Lastly there is also the argument that doing anything is better than nothing. Some people aren't going to get through any books at all if they're not audiobooks, so, they should keep on listening to audiobooks, even if comprehension or recall might not be as good that way. Personally I've been on a hardcover books kick recently, I've found I just get a lot of satisfaction out of reading a proper, high quality hardcover book from start to finish, alone or with a loved one, preferably with a cup of tea, so that's what I'm now doing.
> we've known for a long time that taking notes increases recall to a degree that likely dwarfs this screen vs paper thing
Bit of anecdata that agrees with you here - a few years back I bought a decent colour e-ink android tablet (Onyx Boox). My intent was that I was going to totally use it for reading through journal papers without needing to print them out, regular ebook reading, etc etc.
The VAST MAJORITY of what I have used it for, to date, is the note taking app. Like, not notes scribbled over whatever I'm reading.. just notes.
The act of doodling notes in meetings and training and classes and when problem-solving definitely aids my [lack of] working memory and I definitely see how making notes improves comprehension.
I bought a book replacement and it became a notepad replacement :)
I too have found myself preferring a good solid actual book when it comes to reading, too. Ebooks just miss something tactile. I suppose that highlights when reading becomes an activity with intent, as opposed to something you feel you have to do.
My own personal experience is I hate reading any long form material on a computer or tablet screen. Something about the experience was both painful and didn’t seem to work with how I read. I bought a used e-reader on a lark at a flea market to try it out and picked up reading as a hobby again. Even with the newer backlit e-readers the experience is much different.
As a first guess I would say:
* “Paper like” looks, including slightly blurred text (since e-ink pixels aren’t square)
* Mostly reflective lighting and softer lighting when backlit
* Dedicated and simple UI
* Perhaps most importantly singly consumable, individual and discrete chunks of readable text
Are all factors in making this a better experience. E-pubs that can reflow their text and so that each “page” is rendered legibly and in full are great experiences. Reading fixed format PDFs is better than on a tablet but not as good as an epub
Have you tried using redshift?
I have, and still find normal computer screens to just not work for reading long form content for me, even reading an epub in an epub app on a normal computer screen/tablet still feels off
Might be refresh rate, have you tried a faster monitor/screen?
I know some people despise 60Hz screens because they're too slow and they notice the flickering.
Very curious as well - I use Supernote A5X for PDFs and sometimes I reach to the edge of the screen to try to turn a page
There's a bit of irony in reading a text about printed vs. digital text in a digital text.
My comprehension of it was very low.
Nobody's stopping me from printing it
I mostly stopped reading paper books, as I do almost all book reading through Libby app on my tablet that has a high resolution display like most tablets produced in the past few years. It's a superior experience than a paper book in almost every way.
At work and home, with 4k monitor, it's so much easier to put multiple reading materials side by side and read / research across.
In 2012, even on the state of the art computer systems, the reading experience wasn't as good as it is now.
I definitely prefer being able to scroll with trackpad and keyboard vs physical pages.
I wonder if any followup studies have been done on this.
N=72
This is blasphemous
The answer, as is with everything, was N=42
:-)
I've only read the abstract. One thing I would like to read about is, if the phenomenon is real what's the mechanism for it. Is it that people on screen have the tendency to change tab to look at memes every other paragraph? Is it that they associate screens with entertainment, and even without acting on it the brain gets too lazy? Or what?
(2012)