Does the iPhone still display warnings about "genuineness" of replacement parts, even if they're the original/official Apple parts?
That kind of ruins the whole idea of "officially letting people repair their stuff" as if I replace my own battery, I can no longer trust other parts won't be switched by someone else at a later point, as I'll see the same warning regardless...
> Compared to prior iPhone models, the iPhone 16 and iPhone 16 Plus are easier to repair. Apple is using an electric battery removal process, and the steps for accessing a battery to replace it are outlined in a separate support document <https://support.apple.com/en-us/120642>. Per Apple's instructions, a 9-volt battery and 9-volt battery clips can be applied to the iPhone 16 battery to remove the adhesive that holds it in place.
"Easier" is relative I guess:
Here’s every tool you’ll need to replace the iPhone 16’s battery https://9to5mac.com/2024/09/20/heres-every-tool-youll-need-t...
* 9-volt battery
* 9-volt battery clips (923-10726)
* Battery press (923-02657)
* Ethanol wipes or isopropyl alcohol (IPA) wipes
* Nylon probe (black stick) (922-5065) or suction cup
* Safety glasses with side shields
* Sand
* Sand container
By contrast, the Treo 650 battery replacement took a few seconds and zero tools.
Removing a battery attached with previous type of adhesive is torture - the elastic tab frequently tears off, and I ended up a few times having to bend the old battery a lot, to get it out (very unsafe, it starts heating).
So, to me, this is a huge progress. Plus, don’t you normally have 9v battery and some connectors for it already?
The upcoming EU regulation regarding removable batteries is hopefully going to fix this.
Note that the EU regulation isn't asking for 2000s Nokia style removable batteries. It's just about making sure batteries are replacable by users.
These new iPhone batteries seem to be not far off being compliant, if they're not already:
> A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge, or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it.
> Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TC1-COD-2020-0...
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237...
This is not progress, this is overengineering pretending to be progress.
Batteries don't need to be glued on in the first place.
No, it helps on a lot of issues. Starting with safety (it reduces damage on drops).
A small amount of adhesive might be justifiable, but the amount used is excessive and seems there primarily to increase ‘repair friction’, in a rather dangerous way - actively increasing the chance of a battery fire when replacement attempts are made.
Apple has to do a lot of these repairs themselves in their stores by retail workers, often under warranty, so they are incentivised to make the repairs easier and cheaper. The more risk of a retail worker screwing up a repair means higher cost of them fixing it by replacing the whole phone.
They're also incentivised to make devices smaller, more waterproof, and increase battery capacity to size ratio. These all push for 'just glue it together'.
Do they actually? I haven't had to have Apple products repaired, but whenever I hear someone giving something in, they get a new or refurbished device instead of their own.
I think Apple is incentivized to trash broken devices, rather than attempt to repair them even themselves, because of the massive margin, and thus low marginal cost. It's more lucrative for them to make the devices unrepairable and have you buy a new one (or give you a new one, if it's under warranty), than make them repairable for everyone.
The warranty period just incentivizes them to make the device better quality so they don't break due to manufacturing defects.
I’ve had my battery replaced and sent family members to have theirs replaced, all at the Apple Store.
All have had smooth experiences. Without AppleCare it’s something like $59 or thereabouts. Apple’s made it very easy to go to an Apple Store to have them replace batteries.
Of course, that doesn’t solve the problem for people without an Apple Store nearby, or that need other repairs.
But at least where I live, I haven’t needed to replace an iPhone battery myself in at least 5-7 years or longer.
That’s because activating a refurbished device is faster than a repair, which leads to higher customer satisfaction and service throughput. It also allows them to centralize analysis and repair of severe damage or noteworthy cases and do it asynchronously.
> or give you a new one, if it's under warranty
But it's even cheaper to give you a tenth of an iPhone if possible. It's why they have these repair guides - they're derivatives of what they use themselves in their own stores.
That's a really good reason, but could you elaborate on the other issues? Just curious.
Don’t forget that first you need to remove the back glass, which requires:
Torque driver (blue, 0.65 kgf cm) (923-0448)
Torque driver (green, 0.45 kgf cm) (923-00105)
Security bit (923-0247)
Micro stix bit (923-01290)
Nylon probe (black stick) (922-5065)
ESD-safe tweezers
Adhesive removal tool (923-09176)
Adhesive cutter (923-01092)
Ethanol wipes or isopropyl alcohol (IPA) wipes
6.1-inch repair tray (923-10712)
Camera cap (923-10716)
Display press (661-08916)
Cut-resistant gloves. Gloves may vary by region.
Heat-resistant gloves. Gloves may vary by region.
Safety glasses with side shields
Most of this is available in any electronics screwdriver kit.
And the rest is just for safety.
It's amazing how people will think this is anything out of the ordinary for a repair shop
But I guess Apple caters to the people who think getting grease in their hands is beyond them.
No one is stopping you from using a Treo 650.
I remember dropping my treo 650 while hiking. The back cover came off, the battery went flying and worst of all - my memory card was dislodged and disappeared in the woods.
Better than dropping an iPhone, breaking the glass screen/back, then getting angry about the limited repair options…
How is that better? At least the phone is still usable and no data was lost.
If I had had an iphone, I would have just picked it back up.
Was there a point to this story?
I have a pixel 5a with a dead screen that runs but can't be used because the dead part is part of the motherboard not the screen. It's a known problem with this model. So it still runs, but I can't recover any pics or texts from dead people from it because I can't respond to the screen prompts to allow the USB connection.
I don't see how I'm any better off.
Commenter was pointing out a design problem. Your phone has a different design problem. Are you arguing that a device being able to fail in one way makes it ok for it to also be able to fail in other ways?
Use USB-C to connect a hub with display and mouse, copy data over internet.
Could usb-c also connect an ethernet port and/or a flash drive?
I managed to use scrcpy's awesome KVM feature to do just this: it simulates a keyboard and mouse, so fumbling through hitting tab multiple times and enter, the phone showed up as MTP device and I could download the pictures.
Phone had dead display+touchscreen like yours.
Couldn't manage to enable usb debugging so no backups of texts though :/
Nothing solves for data loss except a half decent backup strategy.
Sadly, Verizon is:
CDMA Network Update https://www.verizon.com/prepaid/cdma-network-update/
> Starting Dec 31,2022 we no longer support 3G/4G Non-VoLTE. To keep your service active, upgrade your phone.
You can get a combo 5G hotspot plus power bank and tape it to the back of your device. Then you can keep using your device on WiFi alone.
Better to use rubber bands. You don’t want to have to remove that Apple-like adhesive tape when hot-swapping batteries like a quick-draw gun slinger.
Not just Verizon; the literal FCC, who licenses and restricts what bandwidth can be used for what purpose.
The FCC did not mandate the transition:
Why are 3G networks being phased out? https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/plan-ahead-phase-out-3g...
> As mobile carriers seek to upgrade their networks to use the latest technologies, they periodically shut down older services, such as 3G, to free up spectrum and infrastructure to support new services, such as 5G. Similar transitions have happened before. For example, some mobile carriers shut down their 2G networks when they upgraded their networks to support 4G services. Mobile carriers have the flexibility to choose the types of technologies and services they deploy, including when they decommission older services in favor of newer services to meet consumer demands.
The same way that McDonald’s or H&R Block are preventing you from using a Treo 650. Those companies also do not provide cellular service compatible with that phone.
The main difference being that Verizon sold me the phone and supported it on their network until they didn't. So yes, the Treo 650 still turns on and can be used without voice or data service, but claiming that Verizon is no more preventing me from using it than McDonald's or H&R Block in this case seems disingenuous.
In contrast, the Treo 650 battery was considerably smaller in terms of capacity and significantly bigger in terms of physical size, leading to a bulkier device that had a significantly lower resolution, colour and physically sized screen. Lets not pretend the state of the art has not moved on.
The last few are just for your safety and can obviously be skipped if you feel like being a cowboy. And to me, “zero tools” makes it sound like that’s your preferred approach. So why count them against one phone but not the other?
It's almost like Apple is maliciously complying by overcomplicating the procedure, which is not surprising.
> almost like Apple is maliciously complying by overcomplicating the procedure
Sorry, which of a 9-volt battery, alcohol wipes, safety glasses or sand (and a container for it) screams inaccessible? (And everything there is technically optional. I doubt most Treo 650 users drained the battery before touching it, or bothered with a suction cup.)
Removing the back glass takes special tools, but I'll take that over having to replace my phone every time it gets wet.
> Sorry, which of a 9-volt battery, alcohol wipes, safety glasses or sand (and a container for it) screams inaccessible?
On my Librem 5, I can replace the battery without any tools.
What you can’t do with your Librem 5 is submerge it in water, so you keep using your phone and I’ll take the option with glue.
I've got some flashlights that can go to 100m+ in water without any glue, and they run on removable C batteries.
And let's not forget the GoPro.
Not "inaccessible" but totally unnecessary. Why the bloody hell do you need a 9-volt battery to replace the battery!?!?
Removing the back glass takes special tools, but I'll take that over having to replace my phone every time it gets wet.
Gaskets have been around for over a century.
Their own repair guide states you can use literally any DC power supply, up to 30V. No need to waste 9Vs when you can use an off the shelf DC supply.
Apparently the 9v battery runs enough current through the metallic case of the battery to melt and release the adhesive so you can pull the old battery out. Seems like a pretty clever solution, if not a bit over-engineered: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/06/28/new-battery-replacement...
Gaskets require pressure. Adhesive doesn't. Different solutions for different problems.
Was the Treo 650 waterproof? :)
Not this again :). Just taking a random example: the Samsung S5 was IPX67 rated (up to 1m for 30min), was thinner than an iPhone 16, and had a replaceable battery. Admittedly, it has fewer mAh, but it's also older battery technology and the volume of the phone case is slightly smaller (and probably has bigger electronics).
Is should be totally possible to make a good 2024 flagship with replaceable batteries, but we'd have to forgo the fancy glass back panels.
> Not this again :)
The problem with this logic is that phones are complicated and have a lot of constraints. Phone design inherently involves numerous tradeoffs.
So... of course it's possible for manufacturers like Apple and Samsung to create a thin, waterproof phone with no-tool battery replacement.
But at a cost to other features.
The market has shown repeatedly that few consumers value no-tool battery replacements, relative to various other features they'd have to give up to get it. People are voting with their wallets and it doesn't make sense for Apple, Samsung, etc., to build phones people don't really want.
> The market has shown repeatedly that few consumers value no-tool battery replacements, relative to various other features they'd have to give up to get it. People are voting with their wallets and it doesn't make sense for Apple, Samsung, etc., to build phones people don't really want.
It costs those manufacturers next to nothing to make the battery replaceable. What is does cost the is future sales of phones, because now people could swap in a 15$ replacement battery instead of choosing between (1) pay 150$ for a replacement or (2) just get a new phone.
This isn't about the market not wanting to pay the extra 5$ it would take, this is about the manufacturer deciding there is more money to be made this way.
We never truly had a choice. The fact of the matter is people's choice of phone brand is sticky, and manufacturers abuse that. If you've had the Galaxy S5 and needed a new phone at no point did you have the choice between an S7 with or without replaceable battery. It's get the S7 without, or screw you - get a worse phone.
> It costs those manufacturers next to nothing to make the battery replaceable.
Are you sure about that? I notice Apple charges $99 for, e.g., an iPhone 15 battery replacement, not $150. And iFixit charges $44 for an iPhone 15 battery, not $15 (not to mention, a user-replaceable one would need changes, like a case, which would tend to make them more expensive). I wonder if you have an understanding of the cost to phones in terms of price and/or loss of other features to make their batteries user-replaceable without tools.
> Its get the S7 without, or screw you - get a worse phone.
Yep. But it’s not to screw you. It’s because they can’t create that phone with the replaceable battery you want, not without making it worse and/or more expensive.
Non authenticc, organically sourced, non-gmo Apple(R) batteries cost way less than 44$
> What is does cost the is future sales of phones, because now people could swap in a 15$ replacement battery instead of choosing between (1) pay 150$ for a replacement or (2) just get a new phone.
This argument is undermined by Apple putting a user configurable 80% charge limiter in recent iPhones that extends battery life multiple times over.
(And that's on top of the smart charging to avoid charging to full if not needed, added many models ago.)
> forgo the fancy glass back panels.
Plastic is just meh.. I'd rather have an unrepairable device than one made of plastic.
(We can't have metal because of the wireless charging)
Or perhaps get Samsung Xcover Pro - removable battery and IP68 rating (and audio jack!) https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover6_pro-11600.php
Is gluing the battery inside the case really a requirement for waterproofing?
When they remove the battery cover -- "oh, waterproofing"
When they glue the battery amd remove all screws -- "oh, waterproofing"
When they eventually require an approved persons blood sample to perform repair, will I also hear the "oh, waterproofing" thing?
It was water-indifferent, like a Jeep.
(Kidding. I did love mine and I did not protect it, and I'm sure it got rained on many times, but I don't know if I ever literally hosed water through it. :)
Do people go swimming with their phones?
Older devices could generally handle splashes, e.g being used in light rain. Water damage seemed far less likely than drop damage.
Yes, I do.
But that's most likely 1% of the market. They can have their own phones. The rest of us just want water resistance for accidental contact with water and easily replaceable batteries.
I think you’re in a techie bubble. I would wager more people care about better water resistance (for example, because they want to use their phone in the shower) than about easily replaceable batteries.
The overwhelming majority of people will never even contemplate trying to replace their own battery no matter how easy it is (unless it’s literally 90s/2000s-style snap on).
We have our own phone, it's the iPhone. I paid the money for it because I wanted the full package. You can buy your own kind of phone that's not the full package. Many different vendors are making that.
The iPhone is not waterproof, it's IP68 rated meaning it's water resistant. Swimming with your phone is absolutely not recommended and I don't know a single person that does this (unless we count people using special waterproof cases for filming).
So no, the average smartphone buyer does not swim with their phone. Manufacturers had other incentives to make changing the batteries harder and there was no pressure from customers to increase the IP rating. In fact all you hear is people ranting how much it sucks that batteries are so hard to change these days.
Is that all you hear? I don't hear that at all. People around me didn't change the battery when it was easy either. I was always like an alien when I suggested it.
I remember when the iPhone first came out non-tech friends had recurring nightmares about forgetting to take their phone out of their pocket before swimming.
Phones being waterproof is a huge QOL improvement
Who is us? Likely a similar sized segment that wants to tinker and are Louis Rossman fans.
Oh, give me a break.
You can still do all the same shit with iFixit tools. These are just the genuine tools aimed at repair shops.
These are basic items, much of it safety gear.
This is a state of the art micro computer. Of course it will require tools to handle correctly.
That is significantly easier than trying to remove a glued-on battery.
And removable batteries require far more internal space which is why they fell out of favour.
And removable batteries require far more internal space
No they don't. Less than 1% extra volume.
that seems not possible but i'm just guessing. where are you getting the 1% from?
Please provide source.
Especially given that you would want to preserve some form of water resistance.
Meaning you either (a) have the entire back be removable or (b) a battery injection mechanism similar to a Leica SL3. Both of which would seem to need far more than 1% extra volume.
Comparable battery capacity, materials and technology? No.
"every tool you need" sounds like basic stuff for a repair shop
Nobody is going and buying the Apple 9v battery or "Apple sand"
ah yes the readily available custom "Battery press (923-02657)"
https://cdsassets.apple.com/live/SZLF0YNV/images/tp/bucket_3...
I think we just found a use for all those Juicero's destined for the landfill.
This seems to be a new device, should be a matter of weeks to have a similar tool show up in Amazon, etc
There are alternative devices one could use, or you know, just use the tools you have, as long as you keep the pressure smooth. Possibly a Juicero kind of device
With a steady hand something like this would work fine: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00409KRB4
Hardly, needs something more like this.
https://www.gasparini.com/en/the-worlds-largest-hydraulic-pr...
Out of curiosity, I checked whether Google Pixel has something similar, and found the list:
https://xdaforums.com/t/official-google-repair-guides-for-va...
Good for apple. I hope consumers pressure them to be open about more things
consumers, and the EU
They only do it because they have to. Not because they are that consumer friendly. And now? Another arse move, were you have to pay for not that cheap special apple-tools.consumer milking at it's best.
This is great, and most of the comments here seem to either miss the days of the StarTAC _or_ would gladly enjoy a physically bigger device.
So, I can now change the battery on my iPhone 12 Pro _and_ reset its status in the Settings->Battery field, which is great. I already have all of the tools apart from the Apple specific ones, which to be fair are very useful for someone that does this everyday, I don't - so I can replace them with manual alternatives.
Apple did the good thing and y'all still act like children.
> This is great, and most of the comments here seem to either miss the days of the StarTAC _or_ would gladly enjoy a physically bigger device.
If HN had its way, iPhones would be made from through-hole components and 7400 logic. The battery would last all of approximately 13 minutes… so it would be not just possible, but actually necessary to swap the battery in seconds.
Ideally, the phone would be slightly unreliable (MTBF of no more than 200 hours) so that every user could experience the joy of troubleshooting the bad component and soldering in a replacement themselves.
Maybe Apple could even include a sacrificial capacitor in the power supply that is just slightly under-spec’d. That would also give users the opportunity to “soup up” their iPhones by installing a better capacitor in that one location.
It would be illegal to sell them without including (in the box with the phone) a 3000 page printed service manual containing not just schematics, but a detailed theory of operations and full source listing. Nobody would actually look that these, of course, but it’s the principle of costing the manufacturer money that matters.
Such a device would be not small. After all, you need to have room to work inside the engine bay^H^H iPhone and you don’t want the components packed in too tight to support easy maintenance. That space would also promote airflow from the three fans necessary to cool all those 7400 ICs.
No good deed goes unpunished
All it took to easily replace the battery on my IPAQ PocketPC was another battery.
This is also true of early smartphones. They were made to have easily replaceable batteries, and I assume you could buy those batteries too.
But that turned out to be irrelevant because of the replacement schedule. It seems clear that the frequency with which people replace their phones is what drove the decisions to make maintaining them difficult. If nobody ever needs to maintain the phone, why would you put any effort into helping them hypothetically do so?
The analog of Moore's Law for smartphones is already dying and there was a lot of news coverage a while ago of how people seem to be keeping their phones. That may drive the development of phones that can last longer than two years.
Marvelous times. The battery of your galaxy s3 died? Pop that back off and just put a new one inside.
Something that every PocketPC user rapidly learned to be adept at because without the boosted Chinese batteries the thing didn't last that long. Amazing for the time, but looking back, what a primitive device. And you had to pay for OS upgrades!
The cost of the tools required for device repair and the cost of genuine components make self repair almost as expensive as getting a repair from an Apple retail location or an Apple Authorized Service Provider
Malicious compliance accomplished.
Apple's instructions for all of the battery repairs include expensive equipment like an iPhone battery press to put a replacement battery back in place.
It's like they just copy-pasted their production line processes, but clearly that's not necessary.
Apple is known for their... interesting attitude towards repair, even in the previous manuals that have leaked. It somewhat reminds me of German automotive engineering --- lots of special tools and fixtures when a simpler and more conventional process would work just as well.
In just about any other situation in life, you will have to make some investment in tools with the understanding that you can use them multiple times.
For example, I bought the iFixit repair kit nearly a decade ago and I have used it for any minor work for all that time. $80 spent once and I’ve never once needed to fish for some strange bit or tool no matter what device I’ve opened. In fact, the iFixit kit will still be sufficient for this entire repair plus the 9 volt battery of course.
Unless you’re saying all these are one time use tools but I didn’t see that from the parts lists.
I get what you mean and I agree. I own lots of tools just because I understand that they are a good investment.
What I think the parent is referring to is this: https://support.apple.com/en-us/120983
Obviously it is bullshit to suggest that a consumer would buy these tools. But it is also bullshit to suggest that you actually "need" a 'battery press' just because it is on the parts list.
The average phone repair shop will know how to loosen some battery adhesive very well with various techniques. So I don't think they will be discouraged by the Apple documentation.
Malicious compliance? Seems like it, a little bit. Still useful though.
I think it could also be a sort of protection from customers breaking things leading to bad press. As you point out repair shops will be capable of doing repairs just fine, but your average users will probably think twice about getting the tools. I guess I can use myself as an anecdotal example, I’m the sort of person who might try to do a repair despite never having done any sort of work on electronics since I build a radio and a weather station in the Danish equivalent of high school decades ago. I’d probably end up breaking some parts.
I’m rich enough to buy the Apple tools but I’m too much of a grinch to buy them. I actually think iFixit protects me from myself as well because it’s too complicated (for me) to buy the tools I’d need.
I can see why a company would want to prevent consumers from doing things that might reflect negatively on them. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense.
If a customer does something stupid and breaks their phone then they shouldn't blame Apple, a responsible journalist won't make out that it's Apple's fault, a competent reader won't get the impression it was Apple's fault from an truthful article.
I know it's asking a lot for sensible action from consumers, responsible journalists, a discerning news audience, a megacorp that respects individual rights. I think ultimately this is Apple's problem and their customers and should hold them to a higher, pro-social standard. That could be through government regulation, wallet voting, or "unauthorized" repair.
> If a customer does something stupid and breaks their phone then they shouldn't blame Apple, a responsible journalist won't make out that it's Apple's fault, a competent reader won't get the impression it was Apple's fault from an truthful article.
"shouldn't blame", "responsible journalist", "competent reader".
I see you're an idealist. :)
> If a customer does something stupid and breaks their phone then they shouldn't blame Apple, a responsible journalist won’t make out that it’s Apples is fault,
Even ignoring the existence of plenty of less responsible “journalists”, if Apple were to publish “works reasonably well most of the time in the hands of a careful person with experience” repair manuals, I think it’s certain Apple would be blamed by almost all journalists.
And I don’t think adding stringent warnings to their manuals would make things better for them. On the contrary, I expect “the Internet” would burn them at the stake for adding those terms.
Any complaints shouldn’t be aimed against these repair methods, but at repairing being that difficult for modern stuff.
But even then, it’s hard to complain. Thing is: pouring lots of good glue inside a smartphone and making parts fit incredibly tight together makes them much stronger and makes it easier to make them water resistant.
The Apple provided tools are the ones used at first party Apple stores to perform authorized repairs. At some point, some bean counter tabulated the cost of building X000 machines and shipping them across the globe for a marginal increase in repair quality and deemed it a worthy tradeoff.
If you want to repair phones to the equivalent quality of Apple stores, Apple makes it possible via their "overengineered" machines. There's nothing in Apple's ToS that forces you to make repairs this way, you're welcome to buy the Apple genuine part and use your own heat mats and press and whatever and knowingly make that tradeoff.
And good tools can reduce the skill required to make the repair.
Good skill can reduce the tools required to make the repair.
(Watch the Asian repair videos on YouTube. Not necessarily just phones but other things too.)
I was holding out for the EU DMA third party app store, but it's clear that Apple is not on a good trajectory. The fact that they slept on Siri for so long only to then finally add "Open"AI to it with limited availability is, but another dot in the pattern.
When MacOS was still called OSX and developers were the Macbooks greatest contributors and cheerleaders, things looked a lot different. A lot of the current framework components were copied from community components back then.
I'll miss the closed loop payment card support from iOS, but for everything else, I'll just say good riddance ...
> I'll miss the closed loop payment card support from iOS
I was definitely hurting for a while for lack of this (and iMessage) on Windows. While I haven’t gotten over iMessage (and use a KVM with my iPad to resolve that), the additional friction for payments has actually been a boon for my bank account.
The more friction we feel with payments, the fewer payments we make. Cash is higher friction than cards. Manual card input is higher friction than password manager autocomplete. Autocomplete is higher friction than apple pay. I haven’t found anything lower friction than apple pay.
By switching back to password manager autocomplete (which is unreliable at best), I’ve found my spending has gone down, because the cost of friction in payment is higher than the value of the item.
(I clearly also have too much disposable income, but that’s a whole other tangent)
That is a good point. At some point I started spending way too much on mobile payments.
If you think something like German automotive engineering or iPhone production can be substitute by a “simpler and more convenientional process”, you probably don’t understand how it works. These things have evolved and have been optimized to within parts of a percentage; almost everything is there for a good, time tested reason. (Except for ultra-novel stuff that has been around for a year or two - there they may pay with process inefficiencies for novelty)
don’t glorify german automakers too much. they’re 5-10 years behind Tesla when it comes to manufacturing optimization, sw/hw integration, BEV efficiency, etc.
Only thing missing from Tesla to beat them now is being better at actually building lasting cars. Hopefully Tesla eventually learns what "tolerance" means and that cars sometimes get wet from rain.
headlines don’t reflect the reality. they’re at worst average reliability-wise. The reason I know you’re talking purely off headlines is because the wet thing was suuuch an obvious rage bait from a software bug
The cost of the tools required to cut my lawn is far more than hiring someone to cut it.
Likewise for almost every home or car repair.
The whole point is that the tools are largely a once off purchase and repairing your phone is something you might do throughout your life. Therefore the initial costs should be spread over a longer period.
Do you expect your iPhone 16 battery press tool to still be useful in 2 phone generations ? How many times do you see yourself replacing the iPhone 16's battery ?
If Apple was also promising to keep the same process for the next 7 years I'd see a point to this, but this of course not the case.
https://www.selfservicerepair.com/en-US/tool-kit-rental
Considering that it's been the same battery press going back at least as far as the iPhone 12, it's probably going to continue to be the same battery press for a long time. Especially now that they've definitely been using the same battery press across at least two methods of gluing in the battery (the adhesive with pull tabs, and the new adhesive that's released electrically).
> Do you expect your iPhone 16 battery press tool to still be useful in 2 phone generations ? How many times do you see yourself replacing the iPhone 16's battery ?
Lots of my bike tools I have will take over a decade to get my money back on my stuff alone. But I get to do something I mostly enjoy. I can also help out friends/acquaintances when they need it. The same goes for this.
What seems to be lost here:
- Bikes will last decades with good maintenance. An iPhone wont, even if the device hardware was somewhat kept alive most standard software functionalities will be lost.
- Bikes don't mandate fancy tools for regular maintenance. Regular people won't need your super pricey tools to replace brakes or tires. You can use them if you want to, but that's your hobby, not what the maker mandates.
You can enjoy nice tools, but that's orthogonal to the issue here IMHO.
> Bikes don't mandate fancy tools for regular maintenance.
Phone batteries need replacing every few years. The kind of maintenance that a bike used daily will need on that schedule is absolutely stuff that requires fancy tools.
Current iPhone batteries are rated 1000 cycles. That's many years if you mostly leave your phone in standby, that will be less than a year before it significantly degrades if you're using it daily and not just for web/SNS browsing.
That's my home's experience, if you listen to The Vergecast that's the hosts' experiences as well.
> Lots of my bike tools I have will take over a decade to get my money back
That's... a bit surprising. Maybe one or two I could see, like a truing stand or some one-off equally proprietary thing for one brand of part, but what else?
Edit: nvm, there seems to be plenty of Park Tools brand niche reamers and so on that are many hundreds of dollars. I would think they'd remain viable for much longer than a battery replacement press though, since you'd adapt it to a particular bike's repair needs with different bits.
Hey do you have any recommendations on a small kit to bring for long bike trips?
Blackburn switch tool with chain press, tire levers, patch kit, spare tube. For anything not fixable with those, you visit a shop.
> Do you expect your iPhone 16 battery press tool to still be useful in 2 phone generations ?
Let's assume a "no" for the sake of the discussion.
> How many times do you see yourself replacing the iPhone 16's battery ?
100s of times (for 100s of different phones, obviously), because otherwise you _would not be buying repair tools_!
The whole notion that you buy a set of high-tech tools and then use them only once or twice is the insanity that causes this whole discussion to even take place. These are tools intended for professional repair shops, not for consumers to repair their own phone.
My dude, I bought a Park Tools Crank Puller CCP-44. This works on a M12 or M15 crank bolt. This is great since it worked on my Peloton and my bike. Then the other day, my friend's bike needed a CCP-22 which works on an M8 crank bolt. Oh no, why did the bike industry not all use M12. I am replacing my iPhone 13 tomorrow with an iPhone 16. Three years of use. If I were using it another three years, I might use the battery press once. This is how tools are. To have amortized utility, you need to use them multiple times. The CCP-22 was a one-time use tool.
Replacing a consumable part, particularly a battery, should not be a complex repair requiring specialised tools.
iPhone batteries have been replaced long before Apple provided specialized tools, so you don’t need any of them. They will make your life a lot easier though.
Can you name something that Should be a complex repair?
Replacing the mainboard?
Why should it be complex?
It shouldn't be. But it's a relatively more complex task.
> but clearly that's not necessary
You are both wrong and contradicting yourself. If it isn't necessary, then complaining about the tools is moot since as you wrote yourself, it's not necessary.
But, if you design a portable consumer device and you know to what tolerance you need a battery to be adhered to the case to make it not come loose, you know what pressure, movement, adhesive etc. are needed to make that happen for the form factor the battery is going to fit in. You know who doesn't know that? Pretty much everyone who isn't an engineer, and for most people who are an engineer, they might know that these are parameters that exist, but they aren't going to know every variation for every device ever produced. So now that nonsense about it being "clearly" is not so clear anymore.
Engineering things to be safe and reliable is pretty difficult. Add in batteries and it's suddenly one or more orders of magnitudes more difficult. That much is definitely clear, because when you cut corners, just guess or think to yourself "it is just a battery and some adhesive, how hard can this be" you get phones self-igniting on airplanes.
If we take your full line as a quote:
> It's like they just copy-pasted their production line processes, but clearly that's not necessary.
Do you really think there are a bunch of people using manual hand tools mass producing every aspect of a phone? Sure, there might be a bunch of steps where manual labour was effective and efficient, but it's not like you show up at the factory with your suitcase of tools and go to work at your desk.
What they reproduced is the parameters. And that is exactly what you want. A repaired product should be as close to a freshly manufactured product as possible if you're going to be liable for it.
> What they reproduced is the parameters. And that is exactly what you want. A repaired product should be as close to a freshly manufactured product as possible if you're going to be liable for it.
This has some sense to it, mostly from the liability point of view, but this
> if you design a portable consumer device and you know to what tolerance you need a battery to be adhered to the case to make it not come loose, you know what pressure, movement, adhesive etc. are needed to make that happen for the form factor the battery is going to fit in.
as someone who works in this field, this is overstating the matter quite a bit. The tolerances for something like pressure in this instance are going to be wide enough that "press firmly" would suffice in a rework document. It's made to be very simple on purpose for manufacturing, and a lot of slop is built in so that we're not in this situation where microns or milli-newtons matter and cause a battery fire somewhere down the line. The fixtures are primarily for efficiency gains, and in that sense I would agree with the gp that press fixtures are not practically necessary in an at-home version of this process.
> The fixtures are primarily for efficiency gains
I agree, however, the battery example was a prime candidate for "it is not always as simple as it seems". LiPo batteries don't like getting squished.
Pouch cells are normally under compression as force is required to keep the plates together. A firm press isn't going to hurt them. If you're applying enough force to actually crush and short the cell, you are far too ham-fisted to do work like this. In fact using a tool to apply pressure is more likely to cause damage.
Sorry, but have you ever repaired anything? The number of things the price and complexity of a phone, that can be repaired for less than the replacement cost, when you include tools, is…very small.
I've repaired older Androids. The only tools I needed were a set of screwdrivers, which I already had. The fact that Apple is trying to make it seem like you need special tools only for their devices is the problem.
I also repair my white goods, black goods, car, HVAC, etc. Most of those don't require special tools either.
Then use an older android. Nobody is stopping you.
I was gonna say, iPhones are way more reliable than German cars, it’s not a fair comparison! Then I thought about their respective depreciation curves…
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Apple tends to get tribalistic, victim blaming, passive aggressive hand-waving from a very vocal part of their customers.
You see, it's hard to fault the product you paid thousand(s) of dollars because, to some, this implies in also faulting their own decision making process, which is painful.
The walled garden, predatory behaviour from Apple takes this to a new height. Because once you're invested enough in Apple gadgets that mostly only integrate and depend on other Apple products, you might have to fault your decision of spending $10k+, which is just too painful to most.
When I buy an iPhone I know I’m not buying a phone optimized for easy user repair.
I go in eyes wide open and I’m fine with it.
I know the product is optimized for compactness and efficient use of space. It’s optimized for ruggedness, and water resistance.
I would never do a self-repair and expect the cover to be held on with Phillips screws and a bulky o-ring.
And if I choose to do a self-repair I fully expect that I’ll need to buy expensive tools I can’t use with any other brand. And I don’t expect Apple to create a manual for “how to do janky iPhone repairs at home with a multi-tool and silicone caulking”
I’m well aware that if this is not the kind of phone I want, then I’ll keep looking for another phone manufacturer.
It’s like buying a Porsche and complaining it’s hard to fit a car seat in or ask “why isn’t there room for hauling building materials”. If I want those things I don’t look at Porsches.
> It’s like buying a Porsche and complaining
Is it, though? How many iPhone owners can afford a Porsche?
I don't think it's remotely like a Porsche: not the same volume, not the same customers. I could say "it's like buying shoes and expecting to be able to change shoelaces" and it wouldn't have much less value than your comparison.
try again. affording a porsche, volume, and same customers have nothing to do with prior poster’s statement.
its about moving in next to a music club and complaining about noise
It's actually about moving next to a music club without knowing that there is a music club, in a world where the vast majority of (affordable) apartments are next to a music club.
Would it be weird to complain about the fact that there is always noise everywhere and that you wish we improved the situation?
> I don't think it's remotely like a Porsche
Ok, replace it with a $5,000 used pickup truck that is 20 years old.
You don't buy an a pickup truck then complain about the ride quality or fuel economy. Or the fact it doesn't have 6 seats for passengers.
Most users aren't consciously making this choice. It's great that you are, but every time an iPhone owner would balk at the insane repair costs, all we could do is shrug and say that's just how Apple designs their devices.
So, honestly, you can bug off with this "fuck you, I know what I'm getting into" attitude. It's telling what kind of response I'm getting. All you care about is yourself.
I'm not sure I'd blame Apple for their customers not doing their due diligence. That's a basic responsibility of consumers. If they choose not to go in eyes wide open, that's on them.
Should we design premium products for the lowest common denominator customer? They wouldn't be premium products anymore.
> It's like they just copy-pasted their production line processes, but clearly that's not necessary.
If they copy-pasted their production line processes the parts would cost less than $40 total.
Their production line process is optimised for producing millions of devices.
I wonder if aliens exist, what technology they have for basics like transportation. Do they just load themselves into a cannon and shoot them to the destination? Just completely different ways of doing everything.
