• psychoslave 3 hours ago

    I guess it means "oldest known among post-european invasion"? :)

    • boomboomsubban 3 hours ago

      From the article

      >"Native Americans undoubtedly had earlier grave markers (perhaps made of wood that did not survive), but they were not made of carved stone. Nor did the English settlers have the technology and skills to cut and engrave tombstones; that is why they imported them."

      Tombstones hardly seem like a universal thing, grave monuments may be but tombstones in particular not really.

      • rightbyte 2 hours ago

        > Nor did the English settlers have the technology and skills to cut and engrave tombstones

        Seems rather implausible. Engraving in wood is about the same thing but way less tideous. A chissel and a hammer.

        It probably comes down to a matter of will (and funding...), not tech.

        • Wytwwww 23 minutes ago

          Polishing marble, limestone etc. (as opposed to just engraving something on a rock) still requires skilled workers, equipment etc. The small, underdeveloped early colonies couldn't really sustain such a specialized industry.

          • boomboomsubban 2 hours ago

            >cut and engrave

            Stonecutting takes a lot of specialized tools and resources, things we could fairly easily know Jamestown lacked.

        • pcl 3 hours ago

          From the researcher quoted in the article:

          ”Native Americans undoubtedly had earlier grave markers (perhaps made of wood that did not survive), but they were not made of carved stone. Nor did the English settlers have the technology and skills to cut and engrave tombstones; that is why they imported them.”

          • MavisBacon 2 hours ago

            also in defense of the title, Native Americans certainly did not consider themselves Americans around this period, some still don't feel like they are afforded the protections of other Americans. These were two nations entirely culturally separate but geographically overlapped

            • yieldcrv an hour ago

              > two nations

              500+ nations within the current US boundaries alone

              Take a look at a map of Europe around the 1600s with all the free cities and sovereignties, and imagine that an undocumented version of North America looked like that as well

              Its been too reductive to group the indigenous populations into one native american group, and one trend of "land acknowledgements" has been helpful in revealing that in a digestible way

              • MavisBacon 2 minutes ago

                This is a bit a matter of semantics. Using the term nation may potentially confuse those who have no experience with Native American history, true. They had many nations. Regardless, though, as the natives faced increased threat of elimination there did become a central united Native American community gradually and then explicitly. Thinking of things like the American Indian Movement (of course started considerably later than the event the OP is referring to, though)

                • Wytwwww 19 minutes ago

                  > Take a look at a map of Europe around the 1600s with all the free cities and sovereignties

                  To be fair, those European states, groups, and entities were still extremely interconnected (in comparison) and shared societal, cultural, and religious traits. They viewed themselves as part of a single "Christian civilization," at least in very broad terms. I don't think such an argument could be made for North American societies.

                  And yeah viewing all Native Americans (I mean in the 1600s, not necessarily now) as belonging to some single "nation" seems like a purely European projection. That seem pretty superficial and essentially erases all of those diverse cultures (which is what is what ended up happening...).

            • boffinAudio an hour ago

              There are megalithic sites in the North American region which may have served the purpose of gravestones, but it doesn't fit the European colonial/settler narrative to identify and recognize this fact.

              Yet.

              • lnxg33k1 34 minutes ago

                It always surprises me when some talk about european settlers like they have been the only ones in history that have conquered other places, who invaded and had battles through history. AFAIK there have been wars since the human being was born, many civilizations still exist, many were not worth and are extinct/almost extinct, like native americans, why do you feel the need to point out "Post-european invasion"? I feel it is some new woke bullshit

                • casper14 3 hours ago

                  Spot on