I used to cycle alone which I love. I joined a cycling club to make friends but after a year or two gave up.
I found that you would not see everyone every week. So you would have the same superficial conversation time after time and not feel like a real connection was made.
The group had a core group of genuine friends, but they maintained quite an in-group which was hard to break into as a dilettante - you'd have to commit to doing group activities multiple times every week.
Also banter and stories seem to be how men bond which I find boring and difficult. Cycling clubs are mostly men but there were some women, but then do you seem like a creep if you try to inveigle yourself in with them?
The best connections I made was with lesbians, who I could chat to most comfortably of all. But in the end we were unlikely to be friends off the bike because our lifestyles were so different. Like how many straight geeky single dads do lesbians want in their friendship group really :D
Cycling disproportionally attracts men who are also technically minded. It gets people who tend to be in their heads into their bodies and also taps into a spirit of adventure. It can be very seductive to those who catch the bug, but it is also very insular.
For me, the romance eventually faded after about a decade of serious riding and racing (I was a nationally competitive cat 1 road racer to give a sense of how in it I was). As I drifted away, I found that there was very little depth to almost all of the friendships I'd made through cycling. Only one friendship survived the long run and it was almost my entire social life for a decade. There is also the problem that it can very easily trigger unhealthy levels of competitiveness, either in distance or speed which can lead to awkward dynamics. As the saying goes, once you have two bikes together, you have a race.
I had a friend who was a masters national champion who eventually became utterly intolerable because he had little to talk about besides his rides.
Now I find meaning and friendship in spiritual and creative communities (I'm being vague because what works for me may not work for you). I'm grateful for the lessons I learned from cycling, but I haven't looked back since hanging up the cleats years ago.
That all being said, for those who love it: keep loving it! Just sharing my experience.
I feel like that's many male friendsships on or off a bike. Many are shallow and kind of bound to some sort of activity, especially physical ones. Could be societal since many male activities focus on the activity over the bonding (cliche joke: "Best friend of my life, we talked for 2 years. Never did learn his name").
"I once worked with a guy for three years and never learned his name. Best friend I ever had. We still never talk sometimes." - Ron Swanson
Thank you. I couldn't find the quote when searching.
In my experience the thing men have a problem with is not having too technical hobbies or too much focus on task or whatever people say.
We just never learn to be vulnerable and nice. Just by opening up and having real conversations and telling my friends I like them and I value them has been the real way to bond. Who knew, being open and honest works!
It's not about what you do or who you do it with. It's about telling them they are important to you.
Not sure it is a problem per se (people bond in different ways), but yes. Often times when you invite male friends over you have an objective. Be it to watch the game, twiddle with a project, or just drink on the lawn absorbing sun.
And people just have so little time. I pick solitary hobbies because I know we'll never get some team hobby done. So if suddenly we can't meet for a month+ I can at least finish that video game as opposed to something like a D&D campaign that will just fester.
And yeah, that mentality is part of the problem. But I can't make people want to hang out. I've been regularly going to meetups now and it's about the same as pre-COVID, where instead of forming a deep bond with a few people, you get maybe 1-2 regulars and a revolving door of new people. People are just so flaky these days (I imagine many for good reason, but still).
My thinking is that if you only meet someone in one particular context say cycling, then you are cycling-buddies. Or work, they are just colleagues. But if you start meeting them in a separate context as well that's how they can become lasting friends. And you have to kind of intentionally guide things this way if that's what you want.
It seems to me like you are pre-disqualifying yourself from connecting with people. That sounds to me like a consequence of social anxiety. There is no reason you can’t be friends with women- both straight and lesbian, and it’s not creepy to be friendly. Even if you are romantically interested in them, that isn’t inherently creepy either. I’m an athlete and many of the women in my community are happily dating men they met at the gym that were just friendly and welcoming at first.
I would recommend pushing yourself to connect with people, but take it slowly- tell yourself it is okay even if it feels awkward and do one small thing at a time, like smiling and saying hi. The best fix for social anxiety is positive social experiences.
The natural way people connect with new people is through a trusted intermediate- someone who can introduce you, and whose mere presence vouches for you. “Cold approaches” feel a lot more scary and awkward, although they also build a lot of confidence.
I was in a cycling club years ago too. I may have not seen everyone every week and may have not formed deep friendships, but make no mistake friends were made. The amount of shared experience between peer and “friend” can be negligibly small. I haven’t seen those guys in years but I know if I reached out thered be welcoming open arms. My experience is that if you want it to be more, you have to make it more. Friendship in adulthood must be worked/earned—it doesn’t just happen. Sux—I wish it came for free like it did in childhood.
Anyway, i agree with unihacker. Dont give up man. You already know how to take the first step—you’ve demonstrated as much. Be confident taking the second!
I'd try another group, they were probably a bad fit for you.
It might seem like every group will be the same, but all it takes is to bump into one or two people you get on with and then you can organise things separately, avoiding the inner group toxicity.
>but then do you seem like a creep if you try to inveigle yourself in with them?
Are you asking if you seem like a creep when you talk to women? I guess it depends on what you say. I lead group rides for a prominent cycling brand in a major US city for years and no one thought it was creepy to talk to anyone.
The trick or the thing to hobbies and friendship is to do something outside of the hobbies with the people you want to be friends Wythe, otherwise you end up hobby partners and that only lasts for as long as the common hobby lasts.
> Like how many straight geeky single dads do lesbians want in their friendship group really
Really? If they have kids themselves connecting to someone in a similar situation who is otherwise not like them can be really refreshing.
A priori you might think so. I'm just reporting my experience.
To be clear - if I see any of my clubmates out on the roads, which happens a lot, we'll often briefly chat! Acquaintances are nice to have too, for sure. But we aren't inviting each other to our barbeques.
If you already love cycling, why no do like I did and add running to your sport routine? I know, it's painful if you aren't used to it, but I found the local Parkrun community to be a bunch to connect with much easier even for someone neurodiverse like myself, grant you we are a very small one with only 30 runners on a rainy day.
Haha I did have this idea too. I even did a few park runs. It's also much easier to fit into a busy schedule - a satisfying ride of 100 km takes up a whole day!
However it just didn't click. I can't explain it. Cycling is so enjoyable and feels wonderful. Including climbs. Running just feels slow and constant pounding. I wish I was a runner. I'm envious of you all. But I suppose I've spent 4 decades training my body to be a cycling not a running machine.
It depends on what sort of club or ride you end up in. If you end up in a competitive group/club then its harder to make friends as people are focused on racing or the sportives and just want to get the training done
While if you choose to go the cafe ride groups then you'll have people just out for a ride and a chat.
I went to a running club back in Boston years ago pretty consistently. Despite being a solid runner (the ingroup would pace 6min. Miles for a good five or so), post graduation and in the start of my career (they were the same), and looking to just meet new people and be friendly on a consistent basis, they wanted nothing to do with me.
It was initially disappointing, but people are diverse so I didnt let it phase me.
No real happy ending other than I got some solid pacing partners for an upcoming race.
Its tough meeting new friends and it takes effort
> but then do you seem like a creep if you try to inveigle yourself in with them?
who cares, you would not see everyone every week
a lot of guys have the same anxiety, sometimes leaving the field wide open
>in the end we were unlikely to be friends off the bike because our lifestyles were so different.
??????????????
is a lesbians lifestyle SO different than a straight male that friendship is absolutely incompatible?!!
if they live in the same city as you, chances are they have the same lifestyle like you. Unless they're part of the 1% (millionaires/billionaires, famous people, etc), there's nothing in their lifestyle that would stop a friendship from forming and continuing.
More and more I see segregation growing in our society, like slowly moving cracks in a glass panel. As one's identity becomes narrower, more specific, so does the Other's definition expands and, ultimately, separates.
I wish people would remember we're all, all, the same, running on the same hardware, feeling the same emotions, having the same reactions and instincts, even if our life experiences might be different.
Really, there are no aliens on Earth, none; it's just Us here.
I don't read it as "their lifestyle was so different [because they were lesbians]" - it just sounds like it was different regardless of their sexuality. Like I'm very technically minded, but I have friends who are super into arts and spiritual stuff - I'd say our lifestyles are very different, but if I said "I have a pair of gay friends and our lifestyles are very different" you could get the wrong message and think I'm insinuating that it's because they are gay.
Yeah no, I read it exactly like you, nothing insinuating about anyone sexuality.
It's not that group A lifestyle is very different than group B lifestyle, but that the differences are not enough to preclude friendship. Neither in OP's example, nor yours.
In principle you're right, and yet if you examine the world empirically you find that birds of a feather tend to flock together. It's such a truism they even coined a proverb to cover it. And I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that either, particularly for members of oppressed or minority groups.
The only thing we disagree is the number of feathers on birds. You see, I think people have more than one feather at the same time -- more than one attribute, characteristic, etc., at the same time. Identity is more than 'lesbian' or 'single geeky father' or 'gym bro' or 'nerd' or 'of model'. And even if it was, there is nothing in that identity that stops a friendship from forming with other people with different identities.
> if they live in the same city as you, chances are they have the same lifestyle like you.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
Most people, in a city, or even in a rural environment, work 5 days a week, have a roof over their heads, sometimes go out to eat, sometimes go to walks in the parks, sometimes they host get-togethers at their homes.
And so you can be friends with most people in your city. Because they're not jet setters, famous people, politicians, or other 1% special people with VERY different lifestyle than most people.
You're right. I just averaged together one million people, assumed a perfectly spherical urban metro core, and eliminated factors like air resistance and pollution, and now I have a 40-hour-a-week job! Thank you!
It's rather hard to bond over having a roof over one's head. But sure, it's not impossible... Seems like you're just entirely missing the OP's point.
Hobbies and shared passions are not the only things people can bond over.
You know, sometimes I need to remind myself this site has people from other cultures and also significantly younger than me.
Of course not. They just happen to be the easiest things to bond over.
Yeah, you certainly do. Even your list of what "most people" share mostly doesn't apply to this white straight thirty-something mid-class guy living with his partner in the capital of an European country writing this comment to you right now. And regardless of that, it fails to be relevant in the context of OP's post - he found the lifestyles to be different enough to matter, and you come here and reply "no, you didn't".
That's not what I said, though.
What I said was the lifestyles are not actual that different and to stop segregating and splintering into smaller and smaller tribes.
And what I keep saying is that you're missing the point. It doesn't matter that the "lifestyle is not that different" (which is arguable), what matters is that it was different enough to make bonding and fitting in harder, which is hardly unbelievable. And yes, there absolutely is a huge variety in people's lifestyles, even within the same social classes and even when you can still find such similarities as having a roof above one's head. Ignoring it and offering "we're all the same species" instead does not bring anything valuable into the discussion and certainly won't help anyone make friends.
I'm not missing the point, I'm absolutely disagreeing with it.
I go for long solo bike rides pretty frequently, have done some group rides from time to time. I've met a few genuinely friendly people and a lot of passive-aggressive gear snobs.
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Don't go looking for eggs to crack. If you're wrong, it's foolish. If you're right, it's coercive. Either way, it's insulting.
Trust people to figure themselves out in their own time. You did. I did. They will too, whether you like it or not. You can make that easier or harder. What you're doing here makes it harder. I wish you wouldn't.
The “prime directive” has been a much-hated construct for years now.
Wrongly, yes. How well do you like it when some total stranger pipes up to insist on their own view of who and what and how you should be? Why should anyone else like it better when you do it to them?
Certainly I can't say such arrogant condescension ever did a thing for me, to help me figure out how I actually work with regard to gender. It complicated that process pretty significantly, in fact. I did figure it out in the end, but none of the credit for that accrues to those who insisted they knew better. They were not helping.
I get that you think that you are, and you think that makes it different. You're wrong. What you're judged on, just like anyone, is how you act, which here could have been considerably improved. Your problem what you do about that, or if. Good luck.
I see, you get downvotes for remote psychoanalysis... Gender-disphoria is quite rare (I read it's about 0.5% of the population) compared to other likely syndroms like ADHD (about 5%) and more importantly it shows in early childhood for three fourths of the cases, unlike e.g. ADHD which can go undiagnosed for those without the hyperactive side.
It's even silly, like school-level silly. A man shows a little sensitivity and the response is "are you actually a woman"?
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I don't doubt you meant well, but that's a lot to infer from a couple of sentences. I think what the parent meant to imply is that this seems like the classic case of "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
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I guess if you are isolated and feeling like you can't make friends, this seems unlikely, but group based activities of all sorts are a great way to make friends. It's not necessarily instant, but once you've been there a bit, if you make the effort, it happens. It's a matter of realizing as adults that a lot of people (not all) like to make new social connections.
That's what church does for a lot of folks, I imagine?
It's been working for me lately. Been making quite a few older friends, and it's nice to find they accept me despite maybe not voting the same way they do. Not for everybody, and there's a lot of churches not as conductive for it. If you grew up in that environment it may be comfortable for you.
You just gotta bite your tongue during service when they conflate faith with candidate choice. May December 2024 arrive quickly.
Check out Unitarian Universalism if you're looking for a more liberal church community. If you follow a specific religion and care that the services talk about that it may not be for you, they don't have specific religious beliefs in the way that Christianity does. But the UU congregations I've seen are largely made from old hippies and their children and grandchildren, as well as ex-Christians and Muslims who grew disillusioned by their own congregations but still want a church community
Maybe check out an Acts 29 church. I don't know what they're all like, but the one I'm in is very against conflating faith with politics.
Another option may be churches affiliated with 9Marks because I know the leader of it, who is a pastor on Capitol Hill in DC, was outspoken against getting involved in politics a decade ago. However, a lot has changed in a decade, and I haven't kept up.
Of course, if you're happy with the community you have and are fine biting your tongue, that's fine as well.
Thanks! I actually gave acts29 a look and might consider switching over to one in the future. Interesting to see their map with options all over the world.
Joined an orthodox church last year. Hasn't been a single mention of politics in any way shape or form yet besides "the current climate is spooky, have faith and support one-another". It has been incredibly refreshing.
> it's nice to find they accept me despite maybe not voting the same way they do.
They don't accept me, if they vote for people who would make my life terrible for nobody's benefit
Traditional denominations are probably less prone to party politics than evangelicals.
In decades of going to Catholic and Anglican churches (not in the US, but in multiple varied places) I have never heard a candidate endorsed from the pulpit. The only political thing I recall was being told we should stand up for people of other religions who were at risk of persecution - apart from unarguable and nonspecific things about the poor
It might be more of a contemporary American thing than an 'evangelical' thing?
Possibly. The US also produced groups like "rad trad" Catholics.
That's really beautiful :')
There are also plenty of more liberal churches out there, especially if you're in a city. Even in Arkansas I found a church or two that I found more reasonable.
Do they accept you? Or do they just not know who you really are? Would they accept you if you were someone different?
> You just gotta bite your tongue during service when they conflate faith with candidate choice.
Or you can report them to the IRS for illegal campaigning: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz....
IMO, the "I go to church for community but I don't agree with their views" crowd are essentially enablers. I'd rather not have community at all than give legitimacy and support to a cult that has a net negative impact on society.
It's pretty clear they're talking about other churchgoers conflating faith and politics, which is not illegal.
I'd even go so far to say that Church is the last real "third place". One that hasn't signifigantly deteriorated over the decades like bars, public facilities, malls, etc.
sure, and there's also local fire fighting, St. John's Ambulance, State Emergency Services, Men's Shed's, etc. There are community groups all over, in this part of the world at least.
* https://careers.stjohnwa.com.au/volunteer-page
for sure, and if you are not religious, for instance I belong to a rationalist group (https://rationalists.nz/) which has regular meetups also, martial arts groups - I made many friends through this especially doing BJJ, hiking groups especially after going on multiday hikes you develop a bit of a bond with the others.
Or choirs! If going to church is not your bag.
I don't think it necessarily even has to be a group based activity. Just showing up at the same time every week in a place means that you'll see the same people over and over again. Eventually after spending many hours in each other's presence, people get comfortable and curious about you.
try a community sport like basketball or kickball and find a team that likes to get food/drinks after. So fun
team sports are generally not fun for introverts, but more individual sports/working out where you can interact with people more one-on-one might be good, even if they often organize as a group.
Motorsports, especially motorcycle racing is great because you’re completely in to yourself on track, then off track, you are inevitably going to help someone load a van, or get a bike on a stand or put on tire warmers, etc. It’s unforced because there’s a task to accomplish together, but then friendship develops seemingly effortlessly.
I signed up for team sports precisely because I have a lot of social anxiety, a tendency to be a loner, and a fear of being publicly not very good at something out of the gate.
Experiences may vary of course but I've been doing it for a couple of years now and have found it tremendously helpful.
JiuJitsu has been a great place to make friends. On open mat days you spar with someone for ~5 minutes then chat a bit, then find someone else and repeat. Small group chats at the end, maybe grab some food.
The are a lot of IT oriented people at my gym, but also surgeons, lawyers, business owners, etc...
The key, like anything, is try a few different schools to find the vibe you want.
Climbing (not bouldering), you literally trust with your life to other person. Or some hiking/alpinism sports club, usually if they do 1 of those many of them do other interesting stuff like ski touring in winter.
hmmmm I consider myself an introvert and I liked it. Maybe I'm not as introverted as I thought...
> team sports are generally not fun for introverts
Uh, citation needed?
Team sports may not be generally fun for people who are shy or who have poor social skills, but those 2 things aren’t synonymous with introversion.
But team sports can be great fun for people who are shy or who have poor social skills because they force improvement of those skills.
It definitely works but you get out of it what you put into it, just being there isn't enough unless you happen to find a group with a super connector who is quick to invite new people into their circle.
To guarantee success you have to engage with other people and be willing to take the next step yourself (i.e. ask potential friends out on a "date" to explore a different shared interest).
I understand your general point and I'm not trying to make a general refutation of it.
I'm just reporting some actual events from my own life where group based activities did not result in friendships, and doing some initial reflection and analysis on why that might have been, which I thought might be of interest.
Men, be friends with women. On the whole, they tend to be better at it. If a man can learn to be friends with women he can then form better friendships with men. And be better able to discern which men to bother to pursue friendships with. That was one of my takeaways from this (and also from my actual life).
As a man I find it far easier to have a friendship with another man because the whole sexual element is entirely absent and it seems much easier to find stuff we have in common to talk about.
Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
>Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
That still sounds so alien and crazy to me. My friendship, when I grew up has always been a good mix of men and women. We never cared about that. No one gave a shit if anyone got naked and changed clothes (or for whatever reason). And a few of them had a relationship with eachother. In the friend group there was never anything sexual. We were/are just friends. It's weird to me that people think it ain't possible
People don't think it ain't possible. Just that it isn't common and there is a sexual tension in the end. And when you are in a relationship there are insecurities.
Your situation doesn't seem "normal".
>Your situation doesn't seem "normal".
This perspective is so mind-blowing to me. I'm Western European, and all of my male friends have female friends, all of my female friends have male friends. That's what's normal to me. When I hear people say things like "friendship between men and women always has sexual tension," that's what sounds "not normal" to me.
I guess it has a lot to do with cultural norms and gender roles.
I'm not sure if this was the intention, but while I believe anyone can be friends, the comment about 'if anyone got naked and changed clothes' doesn't seem entirely typical for most cultures.
When we go skiing, for example, we all change from jeans into Winter clothes outside the car after parking at the resort. I've seen most of my friends in their undies, regardless of gender. It's not sexual, it's just convenient.
I have no idea how common these types of situations are elsewhere.
Commenting on such topics on hn makes me want to have some kind of footer with a/s/l/salary/social class etc.
I'm from central/eastern Europe, and I feel a little bit of WEIRD bias [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias] in many opinions presented here.
I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just finding myself more and more blocked when it comes to discussing such topics.
Your friends have friends of different sex - I get it, but for how long we would have to debate here to check if there really is no sexual tension there. Where does relationships come from then in those groups? None of those friends become pairs/partners? There are no ex-lovers who after 10-20 years are coming back together from the "friendship phase". Etc.
On the other hand, I never said that there is only sexual tension. Just that it's hard for me to imagine a world where it's not important.
Maybe I'm just confused about what you mean by sexual tension. If I'm attracted to somebody, I feel out what they think. If they don't feel the same, then that's that. Same the other way around.
If people agree that they like each other, then there is sexual tension, because they both instigate that sexual tension.
If they aren't attracted to each other, then there's obviously no chance of sexual tension in the first place.
For some people I see on the Internet, sex seems to be an overwhelming factor in their lives, and they see all relationships through that lens, but I've never observed that in real life. Sex and romantic relationships are just one part of people's lives, and most friendships are never perceived through that lens.
Sexual interest is not wholly absent from my mixed gender friendships. But I wouldn't call it "tension" in most cases. Some are people I have been intimate with before, but now that is in the past. Some are now married with children and I am friends with their spouses (and kids) and would never, ever try to inject sex. Some I am not at all attracted to, and some are not at all attracted to me.
And some I hope to someday fool around with!
It's not simple, but the vast majority of the time it is not a problem either. The real problem comes from jealous partners, and I personally would never date someone who is so jealous that they cause problems with my existing friendships.
Yeah, I agree with that.
For example, I'm friends with most of my exes. We're all in new relationships. I sometimes go out for dinner with one of them to catch up on life and talk. There is no sexual tension at all, because we are in different relationships, so sex is not something we even think about!
If we were both single and an ex would call me and ask if I'm alone tonight and if she can drop by and watch a movie, then that would be a completely different situation, and there very likely would be sexual tension. But this is highly situational and has more to do with circumstances than with the people involved.
Just because I had sex with a person in the past or might in the future or could in theory does not mean that there is constant sexual tension between us.
Yeah this is absolutely not normal among most people, probably the vast majority of people.
Not normal to be friends with any exes or people you've had sex with? Maybe not too common in ones 20's, but more likely by their 30's or 40's.
Lot's of friendships start with brief dating/hookup that doesn't lead anywhere romantically. And frequently major relationships leave bonds that persist after the relationship ends. I'd be hard pressed to think of ANYONE I know who does not have at least one friendship like that (I'm early 40s).
I'm not sure why you are generalizing like that. It's normal for all the people I know in my personal life.
That's what I learned over the years. But by I appreciate that me and my friends ain't normal.
Edit because I read your other comment: sure there might have been cheating and other sorts of trouble. But iirc envy never played a role.
If being in a relationship without insecurity is abnormal, then I'm happy to be a snowflake.
You're dumbing it down.
But I envy you living in a snowflake world without insecurities, cheating, divorces, etc.
I'll acknowledge that I speak from a privileged position, but from up here in my ivory tower, I can see that a lasting relationship is necessarily founded on trust.
Sometimes in life we develop defense mechanisms that are self defeating. I bet a lot of us are familiar with the conundrum of the IT department that always says "no." The environment becomes too constrained for work to be done, so the rest of the business develops shadow IT out of necessity.
Telegraph to your partner that it's unsafe to discuss their friendships with the opposite sex with you, and they will start hiding that information from you.
Not the point they’re making.
In my experience, being in a stable monogamous relationship makes it easier to be friends with the opposite sex because it reinforces that it is strictly platonic.
It works especially well if they are also in relationships and if your partner is also in your social circle. Couples hanging out with other couples is a really strong basis for friendship.
The last part is key IMO - there are communities where the activity involves spending solitary time alone with the other party, and that tends to be much harder to do stably with opposite sex partners without some kind of sexual relationship forming, regardless of other relationships.
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
I would never subject myself to that kind of relationship.
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
What do you suppose a monogamous bi person would do?
All this normalized controlling jealousy out there is so strange and sad to me as someone in open relationships full of bi people. We're happy for each other if someone has a good time when we're apart, we all hang out together and have a good time, even go to furry cons and get up to shenanigans together.
From what I recall of a lecture I once listened to on human sexual behaviors, the drive to at least have encounters with multiple people is very common and makes evolutionary sense as far as adding diversity to your offspring pool.
I'll go as far as to say the expectation of strict monogamy is a repressive social norm that leads to needless heartache and shame from the effects of cheating, on both parties - of course breaking the boundaries of a relationship is one's own avoidable choice, and the cheater is wrong to do so and bears the blame here, but the fact that it's such a common occurance supports the argument here - the repressed urge was so strong it overrode their care for the relationship. How many relationships would have been saved if sex wasn't seen as such a big deal? In the age of contraception, PreP, vaccines, etc. I don't see the value to society in strict sexual monogamy as a norm.
I can't disagree with this more strongly.
It's very easy to leave the sexual element out of your co-ed relationships.
It's very easy to have things in common with the opposite gender.
Women tend to be extremely willing to talk about their feelings while men bottle them up due to societal expectations and gender norms, so women make great friends for men.
If your significant other can't handle you having friends of the opposite sex they are not being reasonable. (It's not like you have to have sleepovers or something!)
Precisely, and following their logic a bi person would have to have no friends at all.
I THINK that following their logic a bi person would have to have no bi or gay male friends and no hetero or bi female friends.
If I'm understanding that the root of this so-called "logic" is in the threat of mutual attraction with someone other than the partner.
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
That's not a healthy relationship.
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If you or your partner are the sort of person who might cheat, then sure I guess. But I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship where cheating was on the cards and we had to regulate our social lives to prevent it. I don't think that's healthy.
My husband and I have been in a rock solid relationship for over a decade, and we don't have any issues with opposite-sex friendships. It would be weird if we did because it would mean that we couldn't have any mutual friends and share a social life together as a couple. That seems really unnatural and unhealthy to me.
To add, depending on the context, this could also be a sign of controlling behavior. Policing who your partner is friends with is pretty classic controlling behavior, but insisting your partner not be friends with their preferred gender is also "normal" in certain circles. I don't think that's a healthy norm, but it is important context.
For instance, if someone's partner said they couldn't be friends with men/women, and then tried to create distance between them and their family, then I would advise them to leave that relationship immediately. That would be a dangerous situation.
Seems to me like such an act wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't usually surprising. I don't know what it would mean for it to be "on the cards".
Given the right circumstances, even an evidently unlikely scenario can become more plausible in the mind of the other, and you only ever have your own perspective to rely on in terms of what you think those scenarios or the predicate conditions are.
That doesn't mean it will happen or has happened or should be considered as a real possibility, but imo it does mean that if people could control for it, it wouldn't catch them off gaurd, which necessarily depends on it being unexpected.
And maybe any of those thoughts are indicative of being in a bad place relationship wise, it happens from time to time, it can be talked about, things aren't constant forever
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That your partner isn't allowed to associate with 50% of the people on the planet due to insecurity?
I'm honestly surprised your comment isn't grey. Mind adding something to help others understand what you feel is obvious? I am left to assume why you think it is healthy and the only reason i can come up with is "boys and girls can't be trusted around each other" - and lack of trust and lack of contact doesn't feel like a basis for any kind of relationship.
I always wonder what these people think us bi people are supposed to do, have no friends and never leave the house?
In my experience, these types of people have given approximately zero minutes of thinking time to bi people. Or any other kind of person, for that matter. They know their perspective and that's all, and that's how they intend to keep it forever.
It really is not. It means there is jealousy, possession and lack of trust going on.
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
If you allow a partner this much control over your life, you'll suffer for it. If you're pre-suffering in hopes of landing a partner who will mistreat you, you're missing out on life (and potential healthy partners who expect you to not be a weirdo in the presence of other women). Turns into a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Take note of the other men talking about their successes in this regard before dismissing the concept out of hand. Or, take it from a lesbian: most of my friends are women. If women were hard-wired to hate their partners' female friends, we wouldn't ever show up to a softball game. It's the culture: seek people whose culture provides a stable and healthy basis for life.
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I've never understood it when I meet men who only have male friends. I understand people are the product of their environments, how they grow up, etc. - but so many of the comments sibling to this one just confuse the hell out of me. Many of my closest friends are also male (I'd say it's close to 50-50...), and none of them have feelings, either. Do these commenters also think gay men have solely female friends, and that non-binary people all live in remote caves, isolated from each other the same as with cisgendered folk?
> I've never understood it when I meet men who only have male friends.
to be fair, I barely have male friends. The extra friction with a hetero woman basically makes it impossible for that to happen organically like it could 10-20 years prior. It's just hard to "stick" with people as you leave the college days. And be it due to bad luck or personal looks or personality or whatnot, I haven't had many people try to keep the connection.
I've been trying to do some small chat with meetup aquaintances online and sometimes it just feels like I'm throwing in more job applications with the respose rate I get. It takes two to tango.
>Do these commenters also think gay men have solely female friends, and that non-binary people all live in remote caves, isolated from each other the same as with cisgendered folk?
Not particularly. I know there's a lot of special interests groups focused around LGBT communities, so that lived identity is a strong bonding point. Not so much for a hetero male like myself (the "default"). That's also why dating apps for homosexual people tend to have much higher success rates.
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I think there are two things that lead people to think like that
1) Modesty/nudity-taboo culture. I can only speak to the US-American perspective here, but I'd guess it's similar in any culture where nudity is taboo. Because you're taught to keep your body covered (and women's bodies moreso than men's) and that you shouldn't--a "should" imbued with moral weight here--see the naked bodies of others unless it's a locker room or you're about to have sex. This creates a kind of mystique around bodies, especially of another gender. With same gender friends, you probably see their bodies occassionally in locker rooms, or just changing casually, maybe skinny dipping, etc... which removes much of the mystique. But in these cultures it's unusual to see a different gender friend nude, so there is some mystery. If there is any sexual attraction that adds to the mystery and creates "tension". In cultures with less modesty or less taboo around nudity, you just see your friends of any gender naked and there is no mystery, and no tension around bodies.
2) Abstinence-only sex education & the sanctity of sex. In cultures where sex is seen as sacred, something you should only do with one person and for procreation, there is also an extent to which sexual attraction itself is shamed. I find that a lot of straight people (especially those without queer friends) feel ashamed if they find their friends attractive, and are unable to continue a platonic friendship if they feel any attraction at all. This is not at all how queer friend groups operate, it's expected you might be attracted to your friends but that doesn't mean you need to have sex or have "tension". The idea that you can be attracted to someone and just not make a problem out of it is very controversial in straight culture sometimes
People who believe men and women can't be friends are also in general only thinking about straight cis people. This idea is just absent from queer culture, and also (anecdotally) from straight cis people with many queer friends
This is it right here. Bodies are innately sexual always and sexuality is sacred/naughty/bad/too intense to ignore/whatever. Sex may be used to sell us things, but it doesn’t mean we aren’t a repressed society. Hence why having any relationship with a woman is stated as a problem why others are completely confused who didn’t grow up with this repressed idea of sexuality.
People in general rightfully believe that sexual passion is a powerful force that can be creative or destructive. Just like electricity it must be approached with caution. Queer or whatever culture works because a few bare wires won't start a fire so long as all other wires are isolated, but if the rest of society adopts this mindset, a major fire will be a matter of time.
Citation needed. And hopefully it’s not a religious text because it certainly sounds like it is.
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I agree that friendships with women can be really fulfilling, but I've never had it work long-term without lines getting blurred and usually instigated by the woman. Friendships with men are reliably less complicated.
Men-to-men is often much less complicated, many things are understood automatically, agreement comes quicker, if sports then having similar level is more probable.
Of course I mean just true friendships, not some hunting for next partner in disguise (or something I saw quite often - keeping group of 'friends' around for next loneliness period to choose next partner from - both men and women are equally guilty here, there was always some weird little dynamics happening under the bonnet).
Guy-guy relationship at the end can easily be 100% honest and true friendship which is what men are normally looking for, guy-woman rarely so, even if they keep acting and telling themselves its just that. Biology is not something you can keep denying for long under various circumstances.
As for the main topic generally, I'd suggest either joining some group of people practicing sport one likes, or even better organize something for others. If you want dating, women will notice, they always like seeing competence and self-sufficiency.
Women - if you have good close straight male friends, and you are at least a bit attractive - don't think for a second they didn't at least once have a fantasy of having sex/dating you, most probably more than once. Maybe not 100% of men, but 98-99% for sure, we are not that complicated.
I find these perspectives to be steeped in sexist and outdated stereotypes. Women know if men are attracted to them. It's OK! That does not need to hinder the relationship at all. And no friendship is "100% honest and true" until that relationship has endured many years of change and challenges. Those situations are so rare that it would be foolish and sad to pretend it can only occur with specific gender sets.
I'm guessing/hoping you are fairly young because though I can see how these perspectives make a lot of sense in the early part of life, by the time we are adults we should view these ides as simplistic and silly.
Mine was that good hangout time with other guys is working on projects together, regardless of how meaningful that project may or may not be. It's really nice to get your mind off of whatever was racing across it all day to think about a stupid old car or 3d printer or digging holes in a yard.
I just can't do it. I even turned myself into a woman and I still can't, as a lesbian, be platonic friends with other women.
There's no middle ground between "She is not that interesting to me, we can be online pen pals but I have no interest in visiting her" and "I'm attracted to her and can't think about anything else"
It's probably a disorder honestly
There is more nuance here than you let on.
I grew up with a hand’s full of sisters. I prefer female friends to male friends.
I just lack the experience with the vernacular of male interactions.
I am great at making friends, but I am apparently terrible at keeping them.
If the woman identifiess as cis het then either they start to develop feelings for me or accuse me of having feelings for them. (even in the absence of such feelings)
If they identify as queer they eventually remove me from their lives as I am either unwelcome in their circles or they are ridiculed for having a “cis het white male” friend; even when I consider, and identify, myself as more open than a hard het. (It appears if you say you are uncomfortable with labels people make them up for you and then apply their unique biases.)
I’m unsure how to square that circle. I’ve resolved to just keep repeating the same cycles.
A nonsensical and sexist statement.
You can have good friendships with other men. Friendships with women is not a necessary contingent precedent for that.
Also reversing your statement to use women sounds immediately sexist: "...And be better able to discern which women to bother to pursue friendships with." The corollary being that not all women are good women, or worth your friendship, just because they're women.
Yeah, I never got the perspective of the people who said otherwise. It's wild how throughout my life I've met people who put 50% of the entire population into "can't be friends with them" group. Maybe I'm just lucky, but all of my male friends have women friends and vice-versa. Grew up in different countries as well, so it's really cross-cultural if one puts a bit of effort.
nothing beats a strong bromance bro
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It also works if you think of women as people instead of sexual objects.
But it also requires the women to think of you the same way (this is, rarely, a problem)
You’d be surprised sometimes. If you do notable things, women get pretty thirsty.
>this is, rarely, a problem
It depends on how handsome the guy is. Imagine the following situation. Comp-sci class in uni. 30 guys, 5 women. 4 hit on you. 3 offer sex. Date one, and it's a shitshow. I'm not even talking about other guys being jealous.
Why?
I disagree, it’s a different modality and you become too sensitive to be able to be really good friends with men.
Alternatively, after experiencing other modalities of friendship, you may realize that some of the men you're "friends" with are actually just bullying you, and dump them.
I imagine that when you stand up to them, your frenemy would say, jeez, when did you get so sensitive. I've been mocking and undermining you for years, so what's the problem?
Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs, but sometimes insecure men will use that as cover to treat you like a doormat. Life is too short to be fodder for their ego.
Also, it's not generally true that you'll lose access to one modality of friendship if you learn another. People move between different friend groups and subcultures all the time and code switch as necessary. (I don't doubt that some people have trouble with this, however.)
> Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs
It's true, they often do. And I find it to be one of the least valuable and most insecure aspects of friendship. My best relationships with any gender, romantic or otherwise, have involved little or no negging and a whole lot of honest communication and building each other up.
I completely disagree. Jabs are a way of being able to tell someone something without bottling it up or getting too serious about it. It’s infinitely better than sitting down and “having a talk about it” which sours the relationship. They’re invaluable and without them relationships feel shallow.
There are many other ways to accomplish that. Eg, using other forms of humor to blunt your remarks.
Jabs do sour relationships with people who aren't open to being spoken to in that way. Your previous comment about people becoming "too sensitive" makes it sound like some of your relationships may have soured in that way (speculation, I don't know your life; if you deny it, I'll believe you). Being tactful means feeling out the vibe, jabbing at people who appreciate it, and taking another tact with people who don't.
The world isn't dualistic. There are more kinds of people and more ways of interacting than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If there are people you don't get along with and don't want to be friends with, that's fine, live your best life. It's the same way for me, and GP said the same as well. But understand that's a choice you've made because it's right for you, not something objective or universal, and try not to judge others for making a different choice.
Eh I enjoy a constant back and forth, makes me feel at home and nothing is left unsaid. I know at least some of my friends I’ve known for decades would come very close to giving their life for me as would I. You sound like someone that has had a lifetime of acquaintances.
Who needs a "back and forth" when you can just say what you mean. I give my male friends big, long hugs and tell them I love them. If there's a problem, I talk to them about it. If I fuck up, I sincerely apologize.
Not that you can't do all that AND give each other some shit. But if you aren't doing all that I suggest giving it a shot.
I think there's a few things at work:
1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways. Expressing vulnerability is met with mockery until you learn to stop doing it.
2. Sometimes people don't know how to communicate in a way that's effective without being tactless. Sometimes they think such communication isn't possible, expressed in cliches like "truth hurts", "I'm just showing you tough love" or "you need to grow a thicker skin." (Sometimes this works, but in my experience it's actually a lot easier to communicate if you don't express yourself in a way that's personal and insulting, it distracts from what you actually want to discuss. My policy for expressing uncomfortable criticism is, "speak plainly and clearly, drop the superlatives, and get it done sooner than later.")
> 1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways.
Some men, absolutely. Most men? Maybe. But I removed those kinds of people from my life years ago. The few men I involuntarily socialize with are coworkers, mostly programmers, and they tend to be on the less macho side generally, thank god.
I removed the emotive kind. I’m not comfortable around them and I find them to be heavily involved with their identity and defining themselves and less about building things and going places. These are obviously broad strokes but anecdotally they have generally held true.
To be clear I just meant there was pressure to behave that way, not that it's destiny.
That's total projection I'm afraid. I think you're assuming that, if I have an experience in any way dissimilar, I must not have friends? I'm just guessing because this is a non sequitur. Thankfully, that's not the case.
To be clear, it's exceedingly rare that I've had to kick people out of my life. And if you say that you and your friends engage in mutual banter, then I believe it. I've enjoyed some banter in my time.
It's not clear to me if you're saying there's a pattern in your life of friends becoming "too sensitive," but if there is, I do think that's something to interrogate.
> you become too sensitive to be able to be really good friends with men
You're projecting that "you" out there.
Can you contain multitudes that would allow you to maintain strong friendships with many different people?
I've got bros to drink beer and talk shit with, as well as bros to call when I've been dumped. And women to do the both with as well (more often found in the same woman, unlike my bros who are more fixed people)
Unlikely place?
Sport, crafts and language classes/clubs are and have been for a long time the primery way for secular introverts to meet new people.
I think he means spin class specifically is unusual for a man
Yes, it's just a poor choice of words. It's unusual, but I don't think it's unlikely.
For a while, before Covid, I went to a Yoga class. I was usually the only man there. It seemed much easier to make friends with the women in that class than with men in more manly pursuits.
I have guy friends I go mountain biking, skiing, mountaineering, play board games with, etc... but the deepest relationships have been found in the yoga studio with the women there. When another guy shows up I make sure to say hi and introduce myself. We're also working on implementing an open share space once a week for all genders to come and connect. Yoga is the one thing I've found that is more holistic than any other sport/activity.
> For men like me, spin is hard. Not just the workout, but the vulnerability: letting go of competition and leaning into the group, a dying of self so the room can revive. It requires a purging of entire realms of my shitty male points of view, from shaming self-talk to the latent homophobia I encounter within myself when the instructor tells us to dance, to “make it cute.”
This is exactly what I expected from a dude going to a spin class.
What is "unlikely" about this?
>A lonely man in his 30s found community in an unlikely place: bowling club [1995/2000]
Then gets attacked in his home and roped into a fake kidnapping scheme involving a rug and a dismembered toe.
The 90s were wild.
This was supposed to be a reference to Bowling Alone, but thanks for the joke, I guess.
Obviously you’re not a golfer.
Any group activity where you are marginally interested in is a good place to meet people. Trendy spin/fitness class is if you want to meet generally attractive people. Everyone ends up dopamined up and hungry at end of class, good transition into grabbing a bite and shooting the shit. Know many people who goes to Barry's to find dates outside of apps and end up with friends. They hate the exercise, the price, but like the pretty people, many who they don't want to stay friends with.
Opposite view - I cycle and run alone to get away from people.
I'd suggest a car, they're usually better at getting away from people.
It's always situational. If you live in a city and want to get away from people for 40minutes+ on the daily, it's not that practical to drive far away until there's no traffic. If you live in San Francisco, it's relatively easy to reach low traffic roads on bike in the morning, or find less crowded paths by running there.
Of course if you're rich and and feel like it, you can get a nice crashpad in Napa for weekends and drive your Koenigsegg downtown for a morning coffee.
I cycle and run to stay away from cars as well.
Amen to this!
This is really great and an actual way out of loneliness and low mood. There's no quick fix - join a community, work on your body, and give it enough time.
Also +1 to being platonic friends with women.
oh hey, wow, a third place. Weird how someone found community there.
What I think is much more interesting is how activities like this and running clubs might be supplanting dating apps for dating. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/style/running-clubs-datin...
I got engaged before the iPhone came out, but from what I've heard from my friends who are still dating is that dating apps are pretty terrible for dating, so there's not much to supplant.
They're terrible for picky or unattractive people. They're great for those who aren't picky and are attractive.
Almost anyone I know who is not picky and is attractive has gotten a relationship within a couple months of being on any of the mainstream apps. It's the picky or unattractive people who are suffering. I'd say, in particular, the unattractive are the biggest victims since a picky person could learn to be more accepting. You can't really do much about being unattractive - if it's genetic. (e.g. short, ugly, etc.)
Oh, being short (for a man) makes dating so much harder. I'm above average height and didn't realize how hard the bottom quintile of height (about 5'7") in the US has it.
I was travelling alone for business one time and the hotel I stayed at gave you access to the full gym next door. I went over just when a spin class was starting. I've never really done it before and thought I'd give it try. It was pretty good but after the class everyone just kind of hung out and introduced themselves. They ended up inviting me out for dinner (which they regularly do together after this class). I went and had a great time. They were just regular people who all just happen to go to this gym and ended up hanging out socially. This is a good thing.
In most cities CrossFit is a really good, supportive community. I know a few dudes whose entire social circle is built around CrossFit.
One aspect of the 2020 COVID lockdown I found distressing was the complete shutdown of my usual spin classes.
Most of us regulars were on a first-name basis, but did not meet outside the gym: it sufficed to see each other at class. This casual sociability didn't return when the gym restarted the classes. The new attendees aren't as friendly with each other.
The 1991 film _Danzon_ has a poignant narrative about trying to find an acquaintance who has vanished.[1]
The death of weak social connections has been the worst thing about the 2020s for me.
Lockdowns were the catalyst, but still not sure if it was that, social media, work from home, or just moving from my 20s to 30s.
Certainly wasn’t the Sars-CoV2 virus itself
Cycling is how I've met most of my friends and acquaintances in the bay area. There's an absolutely massive cycling scene and it covers MTB, gravel, road, and random fun things like bike parties (SF, East Bay, and San Jose each have their own ones).
I enjoy cycling, long rides upstate here in nyc.
But I’ve never understood how it can be a social thing, as you are on a bike isolated from other. It feels like the epitome of being alone with my thoughts in the woods, not interacting with others in real life or electronically.
I know people do it and I keep meaning to try, but part of the reason I never get around to it is I’m not quite sure I understand how it would work.
The real social part of cycling (and most athletic activities) is the pre-ride and post-ride hangout. It's usually not the riding part.
But on the ride itself, social rides usually involve being in very close proximity (handlebars only a few inches away from each other), and it's normal to strike up a conversation.
It's really simple, you ride with others instead of just by yourself.
> as you are on a bike isolated from other
No, you aren't. Maybe on a climb.
Bay Area also has underground street racing community. Maybe worth checking out.
> We march through the gym alone, AirPods blasting, not because the Knocked Loose song makes us stronger, but because we think our independence does.
Or maybe "we" go to the gym to exercise, not make friends? When did going to the gym become a social activity? I listen to music to drown out the absolutely awful pop music they play there, not to prevent people from talking to me. I don't assume they're interested in talking to me anyway, and although it's often nice to strike up a conversation with someone, I'm there to train and chit-chatting eats into that and usually leads to equipment-hogging.
Glad this guy found a place he enjoys going and people he likes, but it's kinda shitty and weak that he's trying to turn it into "here's a list of the reasons men and gyms are bad".
I think this gets at the lack of semi-social venues.
There's something special to me about events where there is some expected activity to engage with, so keeping your head down and concentrating is fine, but some people are open to socializing as well. It takes the pressure off those of us with weak social muscles, and makes it OK to socialize for a bit, and then do an individual activity for a bit to recover. And if there's someone you don't want to interact with it's easier to make yourself unavailable without making it a personal rejection.
Using earbuds to signal that you're not open to social interaction is fine, but it can be a bummer if everyone's doing that.
I was unable to participate in team sports and eventually shunned any type of physical education, until I was nearly 50.
I found group classes preferable to just hitting the gym. At the gym, there was a bunch of machines and equipment; I didn't know what I was doing with them, so I relied heavily on personal trainers and worried a lot about proper form, and how to efficiently use time and effort to get some results. It took a while to define my goals and the means to those ends, and thus decide on which machines to use, from a bewildering array of choices. I also had social anxiety because of mixed gender and being older than most. There were TV monitors playing dumb shows to distract me even more. I fumbled just to account for my regimen, tally up reps/sets/times, and enter them into my app.
In a group class, there was a clearly-defined program and leader who could demonstrate all the moves and coach us through a routine. There was some equipment, but everyone was using it the same way, so I could take cues from others. The leader was able to suggest easy/challenging modifications according to our skill levels. The music was programmed by the leader and not a "one size fits all" high-energy radio station.
There was yoga and pilates, and a majority of women leading and taking the classes, but one or two men attending as well. One looked me in the eye and thanked me for coming, and I presumed it was a "minorities gotta stick together" statement.
Yes, it is a strange view to me as well. I don't know how most people view the gym, I've almost exclusively worked out at home. But I consider it a personal and solitary activity I'm sometimes forced to interact with other people with to perform. I'm not really knocking him for having a different perspective, but it kind of feels like he's complaining people at the grocery store don't want to have a conversation and are to focused on shopping for food.
Also, the songs definitely make me stronger. Or you're not listening to the right music.
> Or maybe "we" go to the gym to exercise, not make friends?
And yet male loneliness is such a problem!
Anything related to fitness, nutrition, diet, cooking etc is great for friendship/ community building. It's relevant to everyone. You can easily learn things directly relevant to your life from others and before long have useful tips to offer in return. You get comfortable having personal discussions about topics that you care about. Plus anyone who sustains such interests for extended time is not a total slob and makes an effort to take care of themselves and live a good life.
First off: group fitness classes live and die by getting a core of regulars. This class he went to was employing time tested social techniques of getting repeat people. Especially for an a la carte gym.
The all female bent was strange, most lifetime fitness classes are pretty mixed, and spin tends to make more than female. Then again this was the weird dance on bike phenomenon which as a "real" cyclist was always weird to me.
...50 classes to "get" spin? I think he was only going once or twice a week in the beginning, so yeah he didn't improve that fast. People, work out 4-5 times a week, it works really well at developing fitness over 1-2 times, where you won't really stress the body to improve long term.
Unlikely? Isn't this a pretty normal thing?
What a great read.
A buddy of mine just turned 50 and loves going to spin class. He's also an avid bike rider, so that might be part of it.
My mom got into it for a while around that age, then she tore her ACL.
Be careful!
Works at squaredance lessons too.
A hungry woman in xer 40s found sustenance in an unlikely place: the supermarket.
Dude's problem is confidence, not a lack of spin class.
I'm glad he was finally able to invite himself to a social gathering.
Lack of social support will kill your confidence. He found the best possible way to rebuild it.
Well put
It takes confidence to follow through on an assumption and put yourself out there. And intelligence (vs waiting around for some “confidence” to make everything better).
Why do you think it was a confidence issue?
Glad someone pointed this out, this whole article oozes no confidence. Burst into tears at the first lesson? Come on.
I felt uncomfortable reading this because it feels too desperate. I get wanting to make friends but I would rather talk to someone who is simply self-confident and is doing what they are doing because they enjoy it not because they crave attention. Learn to relax and enjoy life.
This is easy to say when you are in a position of privilege and not in this situation, and have a big support group, family, etc. I don't really see where you are reading that they are craving attention either - learn to practice empathy.
The whole article is about how they were craving attention. Literally just read. They talk about how they expect someone to speak to them just because they have their earphones off at a gym then get disappointed when they didn't. Go workout, if people want to speak to you great, waiting for it makes you lonely in the worst kind of way.
I literally read it, and it's a description of someone very lonely that isn't comfortable approaching people in that setting and doesn't know how to make friends. Maybe they have anxiety, or are on the spectrum? It doesn't really matter. He wants to meet people. But even the most uncharitable reading does not support your point.
A really weird piece in a way because to me a lot of the stuff sounds like it's a post from 40 years ago. From the beginning of the article where he mentioned that every friend has settled in the 'burbs to
"It requires a purging of entire realms of my shitty male points of view, from shaming self-talk to the latent homophobia I encounter within myself when the instructor tells us to dance, to “make it cute."
A guy in his 30s feels "latent homophobia" from dancing? Would be interesting to know where exactly the author hails from. It's great that he found friends in a spinning class but honestly a more general way to deal with this, just move to a big city where people in their 20/30s/40s are available to hang out and men have hobbies?
I didn’t get that impression from the writing at all.
Regarding big cities, I think this issue affects people living in urban areas too. From a U.S. perspective, NYC is a bit unique since it has more long-term residents, but in most other parts of the country, including the Bay Area, there’s a period in your 30s when people start settling down, and it's easy to drift apart depending on the dynamics of your friend group.
> just move to a big city where people in their 20/30s/40s are available to hang out and men have hobbies?
I’d venture to say I hear about more folks who feel alone in big cities than small.
And it’s not necessarily “latent homophobia” of the kind where you think people who are gay should be subject to hell, fire, and brimstone. More one where you worry about being the outsider or labeled as something you aren’t and having all the cliches that come with it attached to you.
But what do I know? I’m just a cis, straight, marrried, childless, white man in his 30s, living in the in the city and working in tech after spending his 20s in the arts. The guy who felt weird not coming out in college when all the folks around him were (I actually tried to and then realized I had nothing to come out from)
He mentions towards the end he’s in Nashville.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculine_fragility
It's getting to be maybe a _bit_ less of a thing, but it's still a thing, certainly for many people in their 30s.
He’s just referring to why a lot of dudes don’t consider ‘non-guy’ stuff. Because they’ve been trained that it’s ‘gay’, and that ‘gay’ is bad.